Podcast #16: Incredible Eats co-founder and CEO, Dinesh Tadepalli, speaks with Andrew D. Ive from Big Idea Ventures about starting a company that has created edible cutlery to replace plastics and help the oceans and the planet.

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YouTube Episode: https://youtu.be/tgE6urIcG6o

 

Incredible Eats

Their mission is to reinvent the way we eat food and drink drinks by replacing all plastic utensils with incredible edible options.

 

Big Idea Ventures

Our mission is to solve the world’s greatest challenges by backing the world’s best entrepreneurs

 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bigideaventures/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bigideaventures_/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/bigideaventures

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BigIdeaVentures/

 

Big Idea Food Podcast Host

Andrew D. Ive, Big Idea Ventures Founder

Andrew is the founder of Big Idea Ventures. BIV’s purpose is to solve the world’s greatest challenges by supporting the world’s best entrepreneurs. Our first fund + accelerator (NY, Singapore, and Paris) invests in plant-based foods and ingredients to impact climate change, animal welfare, and personal health. Investors include Tyson Foods & Temasek. Our second fund is focused on reducing CO2, plastics, waste, and water in the food industry. Friedman School Entrepreneurship Advisor. Harvard Business School graduate, Procter & Gamble brand management trained. 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewive/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andrewive/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/thefundingguru

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Transcript:

 

SPEAKERS

Andrew D Ive, Dinesh Tadepalli

 

Andrew D Ive  

Hi, this is Andrew from the Big Idea podcast focused on food. Today we’re going to be talking with Dinesh Tadepalli, the CEO and founder of Incredible Spoons. They’ve created a product, which can be used as a single use plastic, in other words, a spoon a knife or fork, a straw, the cup, the top of a cup of coffee, using actually a cookie based ingredient. So not plastic, not oil based, not something that will sit in the earth for the next 100 years, but actually dissolves and disappears very, very quickly when it’s in a landfill or when it’s in the trash. So please, let’s have a conversation with Dinesh. I hope you enjoy it. Please let us know your thoughts at the end. Many thanks Hey, Dinesh, this is Andrew from Big Idea food podcastWhat is it? What do we call it? Big Idea podcast food.So welcome to the podcast. Welcome to the video. Tell us who you are. And tell us about your company. 

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Thanks, Andrew. This is the new study for Lee. I’m co founder of incredible eats. And we make edible cutlery to reduce single use plastics.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Edible cutlery to reduce what now? 

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Single use plastics. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

Single use plastics. Okay, edible cutlery. So I’m supposed to eat a knife. What am I doing here? Tell me what this is all about. 

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yeah, so the concept is for 10 minutes of your time for a takeout or when you go to a shop to get ice cream or a soup or anything like that, for the 10 minutes it takes you to eat the food, you are leaving hundreds of years of plastic footprint by using single use plastics. So we innovated a solution that you can eat after eating with it. So we can literally eat a spoon after eating ice cream with it and even if you don’t have the appetite, since it’s made with food grains, it’s compostable because it’s food. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

Okay, great. So if somebody eats it, then it gets digested and it’s basically a super yummy kind of cookie type thing, isn’t it? 

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes, I would compare it to a biscotti in the shape of a spoon. So it’s a little hard because it is used for eating your food and then once you have eaten it, it becomes softer so you can bite it and you can eat it as an after meal snack.

 

Andrew D Ive  

And if you don’t want to eat it because you’ve had enough, I don’t know Baskin Robbins or Ben and Jerry’s or Haagen Dazs or something like that. It’s not just for ice cream obviously, this is a product that can be used for soups and all kinds of things right? Afterwards, if you don’t want to eat it, you can pop it in the trash can, the rubbish bin if you’re British, and then it’ll go into a landfill and it will just dissolve in a matter of days. Probably hours. 

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yeah, that’s true and our spoons can stay firm for up to 25 minutes in hot soups and 45 minutes in cold foods. So it’s it’s applicable to both it’s not just for ice creams, because we have both savory and sweet flavors. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

So basically anything that you use a knife or fork or spoon for, from a grab and go food perspective or even in a fast food restaurant, these products are going to work like normal, and then they’re going to be edible or compostable almost immediately. 

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes. Agreed. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

So how, maybe you know this maybe don’t, how big is the problem? how many plastic knives and forks and spoons are we throwing away on an annual basis? I don’t know if you know that world wide or just in the US. or what, but

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Just in the US we used 100 million single use cutlery. I’m not even talking about the takeout boxes, just the spoons, forks and knives. The straws were a little more than that. Just the cutlery part we use 100 million per day and we dispose 100 million per day just in the US.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Per day. I was thinking 100 million a year that’s a lot but per day now that’s insane. We’re basically you know, walking around on a, on a bed of plastic knives and forks and spoons and without even realizing it. That’s incredible. 

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yep and to add to that Andrew nature is giving back. We have been doing this for a while it’s not that we’re doing it right now, we have been dumping plastic for the last 50 years since the onset of plastic usage. We’ve been disposing it in the nature landfills and in the oceans and the oceans are now churning it and giving it back to us in the form of microplastics. So a human in the US or anywhere in the world, is consuming about one credit card sized worth of microplastics in his food, because the plastic is coming back to us via nature giving us back what we dumped. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

Okay, so let’s break that down. So step one, the plastic fork spoon knife that we use when we go and you know, or have a pizza, and they give us a little plastic packet with a knife or fork and a spoon that gets thrown away, eventually that gets to an ocean or it gets to the ground, it breaks up into little micro beads and various other things and then fish and other animals consume those microbeads of plastic, and then we consume the fish and we’re getting a credit cards worth of plastic on an annual basis back in our systems and our gut. 

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

On a weekly basis actually, we consume that much microplastic.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Thats crazy …..

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes, it’s pretty scary.. That’s the reason why we started because I was so afraid for my children, I have two young kids and I was like, if I’m consuming this much plastic, what would they be doing in the future.  And, and by the way, it’s not just the food, right? It’s there in the air we breathe. If you go to an ocean, if you’re thinking you’re enjoying your ocean view, with a nice sea breeze coming at you, it has microplastics in it. It’s not just from the food. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

Now I was about to take a drink of water, but I’m cognizant of the fact that I’ve got my single use plastic bottle of water and so this is going to be adding to the problem as soon as I finished drinking it. So, okay, now I’m feeling incredibly guilty, I’m going to put it down and I’m not going to drink it, there you go. Alright, so let’s get back to Incredible Eats. You guys are manufacturing what spoons right now or you’re doing the whole range of products? 

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

As of now we’re aware at scale with our edible spoons but going forward, most likely by q3 or q4 of this year, we will be introducing edibles straws, edible sporks and edible chopsticks. So by end of this year, we will have four products and going forward, we will introduce the edible knife and edible cup, maybe the lid of the coffee, and the stirrer. So we have some of this in the pipe but we want to take it slow because we don’t want to just rush because it will be a huge inventory management issue.  We want to take it slow, take one step at a time and make sure we get in feedback. For example, our current spoons that we sell, we sold about 1.5 million spoons, that means that much less plastic spoons were used. Then we got feedback, we got 2000 to 3000 people who gave us feedback and we are improving based on that feedback. So I believe every startup goes through the research stage, then the criticism stage and then the crusade stage.  So we read the criticisms and we are taking the feedback, making the products better because we want them to be perfect. There is nothing to compare them to right now because it’s completely new. It’s very innovative. There’s nothing that existed before to compare it against. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

The funny thing is that I get hundreds of products sent to me by companies like yours that want us to invest all the time. Like I’m getting boxes and boxes of new foods. My wife will not try any of it. She’s like, No, none of this is appealing to me. I made the mistake of leaving an incredible eights box of spoons out on my office desk. So not anywhere that was sort of random in the house. And I came back and four of the spoons have been eaten. And I’m like, Okay, what what you know what, what the hell happened here. And basically my wife was like, Okay, I decided to kind of snack down on four of your four of your spoons. And little bit crunchy, but really quite good. So she Yeah, she was criticizing despite the fact that she just went through a cutlery drawer worth of, of spoons before she decided that it was a bit too crunchy.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yeah, agree. Agree. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

So so let’s get back to it. The product itself? What kind of companies? Are you wanting to get these products in front of so are you going out to, you know, restaurants and companies like Starbucks and others and you’re trying to encourage them to swap from the single use plastics that are currently part of their daily lives to yours. Is that is that the go to market strategy here? 

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes, so our initial focus was completely on the b2b food service. So that includes quick service restaurants like Starbucks, Haagen Daz, Ben and Jerry’s  any of ice cream shops. Ice cream is one of the places where people wouldn’t mind paying another extra few bucks. I’ll come back to that question later on how the strategy of including the spoon. So catering and also even like a football game where they serve ice cream or even a drink. Many people love to drink Coke or other sodas and beer at a game. So many straws that they use. So all these major places where they consume hundreds and 1000s of single use plastics every single day is where my main focus is but because of COVID, we had to shift it slightly towards the b2c and direct to consumer segment. But we want to get back to the b2b train where the biggest impact can be made.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So if someone’s listening to that, and they’re sort of surprised, and to some degree is outraged by the sheer quantity of the single use plastics that are being thrown away on a daily basis? 100 million plus? What can they do? Can they reach out to their Starbucks or to the, their Haagen dazs, or to their other places that using the straws or plastic cups or spoons or forks or knives, and just suggest they reach out to incredible eats? Is that the is it as simple as that? Or is that not going to make a difference? 

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes, definitely consumers have the right say, in fact, I have that as proof. I know there are a couple of places in Cincinnati, where the customers requested them and the shop started placing the order, but they’re in a very small scale but if you go to the Starbucks or even the big chains, right? I don’t think it happens just because one person does it. But it’s still very valuable. Because the more people do it, they take it more seriously. And they think okay, yes, it’s as simple as going to a shop and saying, hey, you’re selling plastic spoons, why don’t you change yourself. The more people that mention that the sooner corporates will change.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So people do have the power. So in terms of coming up with this product, how, you know, how, where did it come from? How did who came up with the idea? And how did you execute on it? 

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Great. So around 2017/ 18 when my daughter was born, I went to an ice cream shop and that’s when the whole thought process started. Why am I using a plastic spoon? Even though I am very educated and I know the dangers of plastic pollution and the effects on climate change, still, when I actually went to an ice cream shop, I didn’t think twice before I ate with the plastic spoon and then threw it away. That hit me hard. I was like, I’m not making the changes that I’m supposed to make, and billions of people are also doing this every single day. That really made me feel, I need to do something about this.  And that’s when my entrepreneurship journey started. I went on a journey. I took my paternity leave, eight weeks of paternity leave and I went ahead and found the best alternative to single use plastic. That’s when I met my partner Kruvil and he was also trying to find something that would make edible cutlery possible. So together we decided we would put our education to good use doing something good and we spent about close to one and a half years in trials making the moulds and the machinery which can automate the edible cutlery production. So that’s the story.  It ended with a big big bang, because I introduced the stained spoons and caterer source in 2019. Those are the first 1015 spoons came out of the first mould that we designed and I got my first order of 125,000 spoons from a caterer in Canada. That was my first order. I had not sold a spoon before. So that concrete order made it very, very, exciting and confirmed these were needed in this world and I needed to continue further. I came back to the moment when I sold my home in the US  to expand the facility to scale up for fulfilling the order. That’s the brief story. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

So you sold your home so that you could bankroll your business that you think will have a dramatic impact on a better world. That’s awesome. So how many spoons, forks, knives, whatever. How many products so far have you sold? have you kept track?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes, I did. Because we reached our first goal of replacing 1 million plastic with 1 million edible spoons by by mid 2020. If I look at my current number, it’s about 1.5 million. That’s what we have sold so far and that means that many plastics have been replaced. This is just the spoons. As I mentioned, we are still exploring thie fork. The fork is very hard because if you put an edible fork right, the ends break easily. So we came up with this edible spork. I don’t know if you can see it. Yeah, so this is basically the shape for a spoon but the ends are very sharp so you can use it as a fork and a spoon. It’s a spork and also the edible chopstick and other shapes that we’re working on right now. The spoon was the easiest to make. That’s why we made it first and now we’re trying to work on the other shapes.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So I was at Starbucks this morning. I was sort of thinking about you guys as I was sipping my coffee with its plastic lid and so on. I mean that for me is something that they must do, they must be using or throwing away millions of those on a daily basis just through Starbucks, let alone you know all of the other coffee shops and drinks shops out there.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yep, I agree. I observed on my journey, people expect non government organizations or plastic fighting organizations to put stricter laws through and to push people or corporates to act on it. Everyone is pointing their finger at each other saying that, hey, you should start doing this. And the corporates say, by this year I’ll reduce plastic usage by this much. But if you watched the John Oliver show recently, they keep reclaiming those claims again, and again, the recycling the claims that are made, because it’s very hard for them. Because plastic is so appealing in the sense, it stays forever, it’s very good for the consumer in the sense, it’s very easily adaptable to what their needs are.  So the whole point is, we need  a revolutionary idea that can actually make changes at the consumer level and at the corporate level and together, we can make a better world in the future. So as you mentioned one of the challenges we faced initially was the cost of the spoon. I went to an ice cream shop, and they said, Hey, I’m taking a plastic spoon for two cents, you’re giving me an edible spoon for like 15 cents. That’s a lot of expense for me. I even though I like to be sustainable, I can’t be as a business, I need to drive profits. I understand I understood the pain. I didn’t just say, Hey, don’t why did you say no to me? But But then when I thought about it, I gave them an idea that why don’t you use this as an upsell rather than thinking it as an expense. So basically, what I meant to say is, I go to the ice cream shop, when I order a scoop of ice cream, they give me an edible spoon by default for another 20 cents or 30 cents, or like this.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Or they give consumers a choice where they say yes. Would you like a nice crunchy cookie spoon for you know, 15 cents? Which is what it costs? Or do you want to? Or do you want a plastic spoon and kill the planet? Your choice? easy choice to make, isn’t it?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

No, actually, there’s a better way that we came across instead of asking your customer. We’re gonna give it by default on the bill.. And the customer can say I want to opt for a plastic spoon. The reason is, this will create awareness to the consumer. Otherwise, we don’t generally think twice about it. The whole point is we need to think before we act on it. And if the pain point is you when you are saying no the pain point increases. So basically what we realized was the better impact is when the stores are giving it by default by adding 20 cents to the order and the customer can still say no, but saying no is much harder than saying yes. Because now they know for sure they are intentionally taking a plastic spoon.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So one thing I’m quite aware of or one thing that makes me think is if you go shopping around the supermarket in the US and you are a member of the loyalty program, there are various items which are discounted, and at the end of the the transaction, they give you a receipt. And on that receipt, it says today you’ve saved $3.15 because of the choices you made in terms of your purchase.  if we could make or encourage those and if we keep bringing it back to ice cream, but anything any company that gives away a plastic knife, fork, spoon, straw, plastic cup, you know, whatever. If on those receipts, it said by you making your choice for an incredible eats spoon. We have this week saved 1300 spoons from being put in landfill. And I know that’s that’s a long sentence. And there’s a shorter, snappier, smarter way of saying that than that. But if we put on people’s receipt, thank you for choosing incredible eat spoon. Our total this week is 750 plastic spoons not not produced and not put in landfill.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

That’s a great idea. Andrew, I think we should do that. And not just that right? We can actually put the millions of plastic count on like account on our website or even at the shop store. Were saying, Hey, this is the number of plastic items wenhave reduced because of opting to use Incredible cutlery.  That’s a great idea. I think we should do that.

 

Andrew D Ive  

 I think youn should too. So you were telling me something before we came on the line, which is incredibly exciting. I know that I don’t want to distract too much from your business. So we can always come back to questions around your business. But you were telling me about some good news that you guys just had today or yesterday.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yesterday? Yes. So we are part of the top 10 fellows by NPR how I build this program hosted by Guy Ross and yesterday I had my interview with the Guy Ross how I build this program so I request all the listeners to listen to that as well. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

I was gonna say for those folks who aren’t in the US or don’t know, NPR is the public kind of radio channel, TV channel and so on. Great, great programming. kind of really thoughtful. They have a how I built this weekly show, right?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes, it’s twice a week. So Tuesday, Thursday,

 

Andrew D Ive  

Tuesday, Thursday, so two times a week, they have an interview with entrepreneurs and folks, typically entrepreneurs who have built amazing, really well known household name companies, you know, they’ve had some incredible alumni, you know, folks talking on this channel, and so Dinesh was on that or not, you weren’t on that radio program. Yesterday, you were the radio program yesterday being interviewed for the full time, right?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes, actually, I shared the space along with another stop here from my fellow program. But yeah, the two of us were there in the same in the in the single program and the single show yesterday.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Okay, so we’ll make sure to put in the shownotes, a link to that Dinesh, Dinesh will forward that and forward that to me, and we’ll add it to the show notes so that you guys can listen to that NPR, how I built that radio show. And it’s possible that they may choose one company out of

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yep. So the part of the fellowship program is they chose 10 fellows among 3000 applicants, and they, and based on all the 10 offers where we pitch to a panel of judges last week, and they’re going to announce the winner of this tomorrow, the fellowship winner, and we would be getting a $50,000 grant from sponsored by godaddy.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So Oh, that’s very cool. Okay, so that’s potentially $50,000. Well, you can use that to reduce X number of 1000 plastic spoons in the world.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

So it’ll help us speed up bringing in the straw. That’s that will be billions of impact on the world. Yes.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So where are you based? Where is incredible eats?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yeah. If you’re based out of Milpitas, California, Northern California, but our facilities in India.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Okay, and where are you selling your product? Where is it available for sale?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yeah, so it’s currently available for direct to consumer, it’s available on Amazon. It’s available on our Shopify site incredible spoon.com and for the b2b, we are directly approach them or they approach us through our Contact Us form on the website and that’s how we make the purchases. And on the on the ice cream shops, smitten and bay area has the spoons. I need to check with them if the stock if they still have the stock because of COVID there was some disruption, but yeah, and the respective stores about 1000 TJ Maxx home goods store carry these in their gourmet food section.

 

Andrew D Ive  

What about I think there was an ice cream store is it Europe based or here of Haagen dazs. So Haagen dazs to take it as well, certain geographies where it’s

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

so Haagen dazs just did the trial with us. The first trial happened in America in the US at the Mall of America back in 2020, February of 2020. But because of COVID, they kind of put a pause on it, and they go to revisit us, like end of this year in the US. But in Europe, we’re working with Haagen dazs, like the first trial happened in Portugal. And that was a decent success. And now they’re planning to expand the trial to France and Belgium going forward in the next three, four months, but it’s too soon. I mean, it’s still under the trial phase right now, before they get into the full scale.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Okay, so if you could choose a company that you could work with that you could partner with, that would give you the kind of impact that you’re looking to have. You mentioned, you’re already going to sort of in trial with Haagen dazs. But what would be some of the companies on that shortlist that you’d like to engage with?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Actually have a long list but the higher preferences are Starbucks for the straws, and even the spoons they use for oatmeal and yogurt, and Chipotle because they’re also very sustainable and very environment friendly, because they use the sporks and spoons and add for the burrito bowls, and also the straws for the drinks. And any QSR or quick service restaurant which is aiming to reduce plastic, like I know that McDonald’s in Europe, they announced by 2025 they will reduce their plastic consumption by 40%. So imagine eating a mcflurry with a chocolate spoon and eating this spoon after. So these are some amazing fits that you can have. It’s not just truly sustainable but it’s also a fun addition to your menu as well.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Yeah, I’m trying to get my head around eating a mcflurry let alone eating a mcflurry with the edible spoon.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

We don’t even think about the other part of it, but if you look at it from the plastics point of view, irrespective if you are a vegan or not, it’s still impacting the planet. So I want to make sure that each and every QSR, which has the most consumption of plastic utensils I would like to get them to be replaced with an edible utensil and not just QSR. Even concert halls,gaming centers, all these arenas they use and sell a lot of plastic too.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So a couple of companies that should probably talk to you. One is Delaware North, which is in Buffalo, they’re responsible for a number of stadiums and food concessions in those stadiums. So Delaware North, they also do airports, food concessions in airports and things like that. So Delaware North who are based in Buffalo, that’s a company you should probably connect with. The other one that springs to mind is Compass and Bon Appetit management company. Out of California, those guys do a lot of events and build like Lincoln Center, and various other places, events, and so on.  Now, obviously, because of COVID. Events are sort of slowed down and there are less people to think about these things but as life returns to some semblance of insanity and normality, those companies are the ones you should probably chat with. Okay, so you’re in California, you’re focusing on US, although you’ve been doing some trials and so on in Europe. Where do you see your company going over the let’s say, the next two to three years, obviously, the NPR radio thing yesterday is going to completely blow the lid off of this company and you’re going to go crazy from now on, but where do you see yourselves as Incredible going over the next two to three years?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yeah, so our goal as a company, we would like to reduce the 100 million plastic utensils by 2025, which is basically one day of consumption. Right. But that’s our first main goal. And with all the traction that’s happening, and all the PR that we’re getting so far, we believe that we can achieve that.

 

Andrew D Ive  

100 million units of single use plastics, yes, by 2025. It’s an incredibly high number but I wonder if it’s enough to take three years to get there. If it’s one days waste? Yeah, I don’t know that there’s an inconsistency there somewhere, right?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes, I do agree but then, as I mentioned, people are very susceptible. So the corporates, I need help from the corporates to achieve this goal. I know that goal is very small compared to the consumption that we have right now but taking one step at a time, once one major chain partners with us then everyone else would do so too and then we can immediately scale up and meet that goal  as soon as we can. But there are challenges ahead too because this is more expensive than plastic, and we need to fix those challenges. So that will also take some time to change that mentality that people are willing to pay that 15 cents extra for your product.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Yeah, it’s incredible that 100 million units is a baby step in anything’s right, but it is 100 million units is one day’s worth of waste. It is a baby step. But that’s an incredibly huge number. Now saying that, I think there’s a lot of people out there, hopefully a lot of people listening to this, who would be happy to pay 15 cents, for a number of reasons. One, because they’re not putting a piece of plastic into the ground, and it’s gonna stay there for next 100 years. Or if it doesn’t stay there, it’s not going to end up in, in the stomach of an animal and in our own stomachs eventually, if we’re eating animals. But, instead of that 15, for that 15 cents, there’s a positive as well, which is, you’re getting a cookie, you’re getting something that’s kind of yummy and kind of delicious, and it adds to the overall experience. I can think of my wife, my daughter, etc, all of whom would be probably very happy to add 20 cents to the to the bill.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes, I mean, the consumers will drive the change, I’m pretty sure but it’s just that it’s gonna take some time. That’s the reason why I put a reasonable goal of 2030/ 500 million, and I’m striving for that I’m literally not sleeping enough for the past two to three years, because I want to reach that goal.

 

Andrew D Ive  

You need more people on the team? And then let’s figure out how we do it by 2023 instead of 2025.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes, yes, Agreed. Agreed. I would love to do that. I mean the faster I can do that the better it is.  I just said I try to be a realist sometimes so that’s when these things come into play and push it forward. Yeah.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So how do you want people to help you and support you be part of this movement that you’re delivering?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

The first, all the listeners, I would sincerely request to think twice before you pick up the next plastic spoons, fork or straw and if you really have to use it, please let the shop or anyone know that please give us an alternative that we can use, so we can say no to this. That will drive the change because corporates listen to consumers and that can drive the change. Apart from that, from the business perspective, we are looking to expand the team, so if there are any very interested individuals who would like to work with us and join our incredible journey to save the planet, that would be great, too.

 

Andrew D Ive  

What about students at universities? and things like that? I would hope and I don’t know why I feel this way but I would hope that there are universities out there, where the students are very conscious of what’s going on around this problem and they’re encouraging their universities to find other ways of providing these things. Are there universities out there who are much more forward thinking and are their students encouraging their universities to think differently about plastic knives, forks, forks, spoons, etc? 

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes they do but thankfully, from the universities that I saw, because I did my masters in USC, the most of the indoor dining hall, they use the reusable stainless steel, they’re only the concession part where you actually go to go take out like a yogurt cup, or even a drink to go, that’s when they use the plastic part. And yes, the next generations are more conscious than us and the students and the next the next generation of the people and if they if any one of you are listening to it, yes, going and go talk to you University, that there’s something better than plastic that exists, and it’s going to be fun to us, too. So that’s a good suggestion.

 

Andrew D Ive  

I would suggest that if anyone’s listening to this, who are students, if you’re still at either high school, university or whatever, reach out to Dinesh an Incredible Eats, and he can probably give you something that you can give to your college or university and so on, so that they can find out more about this sort of cookie based alternative. Well, out of interest, where do people find you? If they want to want to, you know, if they got more questions to ask?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

They can approach me on my LinkedIn or they can email me at the dinesh@i-eats.com 

 

Andrew D Ive  

dinesh@i-eats.com and you’re on LinkedIn and Instagram and things like that, or?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Personally I’m not on Instagram but my company is on Instagram it’s called eat the spoon but on on LinkedIn, you can search me by Dinesh Tadepalli and you’ll find me. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

So eat the spoon on Instagram. I would love it actually, if people who go and buy something, whether it’s an ice cream or whatever, if they find that they can actually get an incredible spoon as part of that purchase. If they take a photograph of it and post it to Instagram and link back to you guys. That would be cool.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yeah, that’d be really great and helpful, and it’ll increase our content. Yeah.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So let’s get a couple more quick questions and then we’ll let you guys go. You’ve mentioned selling your house to do this. You’ve mentioned this has been a passion for you for the last three, four years. Over the last two to three years of starting and growing this business, what, in your mind, what was the toughest or most challenging aspect of starting and growing this business?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Okay, the toughest one would be the cost because we’re fighting against plastic or just super cheap. So the toughest part of the challenge that I had was, I needed to convince the corporate shops, people were much easier to convince because they’re willing to pay that extra money, but the shops and the corporates say we need to do this immediately, we should not just wait for the next project to start to introduce the non plastic cutlery. So we need to do it immediately.  Their biggest challenge is the cost. Why? Why is it too expensive? I can bring it down only to a certain level, but I can’t bring it down to the cost of plastic. So that’s a reason why I have to change their way of thinking. Think of this as a revenue generating product rather than as an expens. Think of it as a profit generating product. So that’s the challenge that I’ve been facing and thankfully there are quite a few people, at least the smaller shops, they love this idea and they’re making money. In fact, the ice cream store in San Francisco sell this for 50 cents extra. So they make like 20 cents extra profit out of a spoon, 30 cents extra profit. So that’s a happy thing for them.  And now the pandemic has affected most of these places and this is a good way to come out of this pandemic saying, Okay, I’m making an extra profit out of this as well as doing good for the planet, because that’s what we need to do. So yeah, that’s the biggest challenge that I have. The second smaller challenge that I have is the pandemic itself, because my entire initial traction was entirely focused on b2b. I didn’t even think about b2c at all. So when the pandemic came, all my b2b kind of got frozen, and then it halted and we used that low time to actually continue our research on the new shapes, as well as introducing the product on Amazon and Shopify because we wanted to see how the DTC segment works on the site. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

Sorry, I was gonna say you’ve used a lot of acronyms there. So business to business b2b business to b2c business to consumer, DTC

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

direct to consumer, the same business to consumer direct to consumer.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So in other words, e commerce, 

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

yes, yes, that’s true. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

Okay. I know what it is. Sorry, I’ll pretend I know what it is. I’m just making sure that anyone listening, knows what it is, as well.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

The direct to consumer part of it, which we thought it’s just a secondary income or secondary revenue generation for us, is in fact helping us on the business to business side as well. The reason is, the people who are buying the spoon for themselves, they’re going to the shop with the spoons, and they’re eating the ice cream with the spoons, and they are letting the customer know, the shop know, hey, I’m having a non plastic spoon, which I can eat. I have some reviews, where like grandparents are surprising their grandchildren by eating the spoon. So it’s creating a fun atmosphere. It was so focused on sustainability, planet eco friendliness, and direct to consumer segment, all of a sudden it became fun.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So basically, people can take a spoon out, start eating something and as they’re having a conversation with someone, they can just put the spoon in their mouth and take a bite and frequently, you know, freak out the family. Yes, yes. Yes, that’s true. That sounds great. So if I want to buy those spoons, I can go on Amazon, right?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes, yes, we have them on Amazon, as well as our website incredible spoon.com

 

Andrew D Ive  

Incredible spoon.com. And during the pandemic, you were at Big Idea Ventures. So I hope you consider that the time you spent during the pandemic was actually useful time because you A. changed your business model. B. we started working together. So, you know, maybe the last 12 months wasn’t such a waste of time, you know, such a loss for you.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

No, definitely not. I in fact, I really liked the slow time because I had the opportunity to pitch to you guys and, thanks to you, accepted us. And it has been a pretty great journey, because the connections that you provided, and like till now, right? To be frank, I didn’t have any experience of the food industry before. I’m an engineer by background. When it came to the food industry, I made some wrong choices. Like for example, initially, the first six months, I believed an agent who said he’ll bring in tons of sales and I gave him a retainer and they didn’t do a single sale till now.  So all these costly mistakes, I would have avoided if I had known someone in the food industry who says believe this guy don’t believe that guy. So I feel that I have that now with you, with the Big Idea Ventures team because all it takes is just a message to you folks and say should I do this or not do this, that’s it and you that you’re all combined experience. It’s giving me that what you call like a parent of feeling rather than Okay, someone’s saying don’t do this. Don’t do this because it’s it serves you better.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Yeah, I’m a big, I actually loathe retainers, such a bad idea. Now I’m sure that there are people out there who are an amazingly valuable retainer, but I’ve never seen them work to the benefit of the entrepreneur. Rarely.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yeah. So that’s why I mentioned it. If COVID hadn’t come, if the pandemic was not there, I wouldn’t have looked for an accelerator or an investor or anything I would have just slowly bootstraped making a lot of mistakes. Now, because of it, I came across you guys and now I know I can easily avoid those costly mistakes going forward in the journey and it’ll also help me speed up, right, because it’s not just doing on your own but also help you speed up because of all the contacts and the press you can get through all this.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So have you been have you been looking for investors over the last 12 months?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes, initially not a lot, because I always feel that I need to successfully bootstrap and the second reason is I really want to work with an investor who understands the mission first and numbers later, because a lot of traditional investors look for numbers first and the mission next. So now with the recent attraction that is going on, I am looking to raise some money because we would like to expand our facility as soon as we can.  We are capped at 40,000 spoons per day right now. We need to introduce the sporks, straws and other shapes too and in order to do that, we need some money to scale it up. Not just for the scaling even for expanding my team. As I mentioned, I’m hardly getting any sleep. So I need to hire people and make it a real and sustainable company going forward.  Another reason for money is till now in the last two years, we have not spent a penny on advertising. So I don’t even know what my customer acquisition cost is because the IRA not spend any penny on them. It’s all through trade shows. It’s all through LinkedIn Sales Navigator, it’s all direct. It’s very organic and very word to word of mouth. So I also want to explore the ad side of it and see how marketing would work to boosts our sales to reach our first goal.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So the funny thing is, if you’ve sold 1.5 million units over the last year or two, it’s already a real business, right? It’s already a real business. It’s not getting there it is there. In terms of finding investors who are more focused on mission versus money. Couple of things one is having, you know, investors who are on the same mission as you is incredibly important.  Whatever that mission is, even if your mission is to raise money to make money, just have to, you know, be aligned with your investors. But if you guys can achieve your goal of producing and selling and reducing 100 million items over the next two to three years, that’s a sizable business, even though it’s only one day’s worth of waste for us right now. So you guys don’t have it’s not an either, or I think you guys are going to be able to make a significant revenue generating business, which does incredibly good things for the planet. So any investor in your compan is going to get money, when they back you.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

I mean, because it’s hard earned money from any investor as well. Right. So that I understand that point of view, it’s just that instead of, it’s just the focus part of it, right, I want equal focus on both rather than one over the other. That’s my point. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

I get it but you know, any business selling the 100 million units over the next year or two is a decent sized business, even if it’s plastics, you know, reducing plastic forks, knives, spoons. Yeah, I think if we can do something around, straws, you know, plastic coffee cup lids, plastic forks, knives, etc. That’s, that’s huge.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

We’re working on that. Definitely. One. Yeah, definitely.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So the other thing is taste right. Your products aren’t just cookie flavored products. You’ve got different flavors and different skews. Right. So how does that work?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yeah, so right now we have vanilla and chocolate for our sweet flavors, and plain Organa chili and black pepper for the savory flavors. And all initially the flavoring started it with a mindset that, like, if someone’s using it, I don’t want it to change the taste of the food, they eat. Like for example, if you’re eating with a soup, or a salad, I don’t want thebspoon to change the taste of the salad or the soup. So that’s the reason why we put the flavor inside. So if you just licked the spoon, you don’t taste it, but if you bite the spoon, you will feel the taste. So that’s the reason behind why it’s very subtle. t’s not like a super sweet cookie. It’s a very subtle cookie. And think of a fortune cookie but much less sweet. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

My wife tried I think pretty much every flavor in the span of about 10 minutes without asking me so you know, she liked them. Dinesh, one last time where can people reach out to you if they’ve got more questions and want to know more about what you’re doing?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Great. They can reach out to me directly on LinkedIn Dinesh Tadepall or they can email me at dinesh@i-eats.com or you can feel free to leave a message on our website www.incrediblespoon.com and you can also buy the product there as well as on Amazon.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Awesome and if there’s one thing you want people to do after listening to this, what would that one thing be? I guess making a decision about not using a knife, fork, spoon, straw the next time they purchase?

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Yes at least think about it. I know it’s very hard to do the change immediately. That’s the problem. Like we expect people to change overnight, but that’s not going to happen. At least if they start thinking about it. Okay, every time they eat something that has a plastic spoon or fork or knife, think about it, hey, I’m using this should I? Should I do something about this? How bad is it going to be in the future? Once you start thinking about it, the change will automatically follow.

 

Andrew D Ive  

I think you’re right. Dinesh, thank you so much for coming along to the Big Idea Podcast: Food or the Big Idea podcast, dash food. Appreciate your time. Congratulations on the NPR as I build this, right, it’s how I build this how I build this. Okay? And let’s hope that tomorrow you get some good news that you won the competition sponsored by godaddy and you’ve got $50,000 to help reduce the plastic fork, spoon, straw, you know, industry. Thank you so much for coming on. We’re gonna press pause and I hope people do reach out to you because you’re doing amazing things.

 

Dinesh Tadepalli  

Thank you so much. Appreciate the opportunity.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Hi, this is Andrew again, from Big Idea podcast foods that was Dinesh from Incredible Spoons. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. If you have questions or comments, please do leave them, like subscribe, and so on. You can also reach out to us via Big Idea Ventures.com or via LinkedIn, Instagram or one of those wonderful platforms. Please do find us next week. We put these out every week when we have great conversations with founders of fantastic food companies. Look forward to engaging with you chatting with you next week. Thanks

Podcast #15: Peace of Meat CEO and Co-Founder Dirk von Heinrichshorst speaks with Andrew D. Ive from Big Idea Ventures about Peace of Meat, a B2B supplier of tasty cultured fat, produced directly from animal cells without harming the animal or the environment.

Big Idea Ventures has launched our very own podcast “The Big Idea Podcast: Food”. Each week Big Idea Ventures Founder Andrew D. Ive will speak with some of the most innovative minds in the food space and talk about the exciting projects they are a part of. 

To listen to the episode click the links below!

Podcasts

• Sticher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-big-idea-food-podcast
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/57TBllxq5CjpdVzzhNGjBp?si=u0hbKJqVQqqpkmyAv28ETg&dl_branch=1&nd=1
• Google Podcast: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZC5jby90aGUtYmlnLWlkZWEtcG9kY2FzdC1mb29k
• Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-big-idea-podcast-food/id1564457496
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsUfURjizps&t=1s

To learn more about Peace of Meat check out the links below!

Peace of Meat:  https://peace-of-meat.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/peace-of-meat/

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Transcript

Andrew D Ive  

Hi there, this is Andrew from the big idea podcast focused on food. Today we’re going to be talking to Dirk, the co founder of Peace of Meat spelled P-E-A-C-E of meat from Belgium. They’re focused o n cell based meat. They’re creating fat, and liver. But the biggest thing they’re focused on is how do you scale cell based meat technology? How do you make it have a sizable quantity and sizable production so that they actually can make a difference? So today, we’re we’re talking to Dirk. We’ll be getting into it in a second. Thanks for coming along. And by all means, subscribe to this podcast, so that you can get updates on a weekly basis as we bring new podcasts to you. Thank you.

 

Okay, Dirk, Dirk from Peace of Meat. How are you? Welcome to The Big Idea Podcast Food. Not big idea food podcast, the big idea podcast food, because one day we may do other podcasts around similar amazing categories. So anyway, Dirk, welcome to our podcast. Great to speak with you.

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Thank you. Thank you. Bless you again, Andrew.

 

Andrew D Ive  

I know it’s it’s been a little while. Lots have happened since since we last had a conversation. Absolutely. You look, you look, I’m not sure if he looked younger or older, let we’ll get into whether it’s been a really great six to 12 months. As you can say handsomer handsomer? Yes, I can I can. I don’t know if you can be any handsome from the last time I spoke? Of course. All right. So you are the CEO of Peace of meat? Why don’t we get into what Peace of Meat is and what it’s all about?

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Alright. Yeah, so Peace of Meat is actually the first cultured meat company in Belgium. I founded it with two of my co founders back in August 2019. And we’ve been on a very spectacular ride ever since. And currently, we are focusing on upscaling the process regarding the growth of cultured fat. So growing fat, and large bioreactors aiming, of course, to reach production volumes sooner rather than later. And we have been very lucky that actually, in our very short existence, we’ve already been acquired by another company called MeaTech. Who has rewarded us handsomely. And who’s giving the company all the opportunities that we actually need, not just our company, but I would say, as a industry as a whole to reach these upscaling milestones.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Okay, so there’s a lot in there. And for you and I who have been or you and me who have been circling around this space for many, many years. All of that makes absolute sense. For those that haven’t, let’s just kind of very quickly touch on cell based. So cell based just gives, if you wouldn’t mind, just give people a quick overview of what that is for those that are new to this.

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Are you asking this every cell based company?

 

Andrew D Ive  

You know, I haven’t spoken to any cell based companies? Oh, okay, great.

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Okay. Okay. So I can give, I can give a bit of technical information, just like a high level.

 

Andrew D Ive  

However, however, you would describe this to an investor that is sort of new to the whole space or, you know, or maybe your, your, your aunt or your uncle or someone in the pub, the Belgium, beer gardens or whatever.

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Right? So yes, obviously, we’re all looking for alternative solutions for producing fruit, right? In the future, this will absolutely be necessary and sources of alternative protein are one of the primary targets for many of us. We’ve decided to start growing cells, that means we’re taking cells from animals. In our case, since we’re working with avian species, we’re isolating cells from eggs. In a very early stage of the development, we’re looking for very specific cells, we put them in culture, and then we start duplicating these cells until we have a lot of them, right. So we then create what is called a the cell line. And with this cell line, we can start really culturing the cell platform. That means we start growing them in really large volumes. So starting from lab scale in petri dishes or flasks towards, let’s say, two liter by reactors, 20 litres, 200 liters, 2000 liters and so on. And then of course, we need to turn that into something, right. So once we have reached the limit of the cell growth, we want to turn it into something that we can process later on as a food ingredient. In our case, that would be fat, but we could as well transform that into muscle, or into liver, or in anything else basically, that we, that the cells allow themselves to be transformed in. And that, of course, depends on the cell type that you’re working with. And since Peace of Meat is focusing on biomass production, mainly, we’re not so much involved in the, let’s say, Food Science part not literally, right, so after the acquisition, we split it up a little bit. So it’s more Meat Tech Europe who is focusing on the food science and really on the plant based matrix that will be then combined with our cultured fats to turn that into something eatable. And then they of course, need to focus on on texture, and taste, and so on, while pieces meat as a company is, is primarily focusing on the biomass production, obviously taking into account that needs to be a food ingredient as well. And this is where our our, our main focus is right now.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So why are you so perfectly outlining, you know, the whole process, and thank you for that? I was remembering I did have one or two conversations with cell based companies. And I never asked them that question. And I wonder why. And I hope anyone who ever listens to those doesn’t get completely confused about what cell based is if they’re not new to it, but I wanted to admit it, I wanted to make out there in case you listen to those and thought he lied. We weren’t. We weren’t the first. And he made me do this. And he didn’t make anyone else do this. You know, I didn’t. So I hope anyone listening to those other podcasts isn’t completely confused by what we’re talking about. Can I ask very quickly, you mentioned fat a few times why why fat? Why is that a product or an ingredient that that we need given? You know, I guess given that we’re trying to get fat out of out of foods, we’re trying to get lower fat. So why focus on producing fat?

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Well, this discussion around whether or not we need fat in our diet, I will leave that in the middle. You’re quite right. But we do believe that one of the concerns currently with plant based meat alternatives, for example, is that it lacks a bit in a sense, say in juiciness, it tries to mimic fat using plant based alternatives such as palm fat, or coconut fat. They’re not ideal for a couple of different reasons. And there’s also of course, techniques that tried to find solutions to make it more or less better. So what we’re saying is look, although these initiatives are really good, we can actually replace all these techniques by just one simple ingredients, which is cultured fat. And I can testify that cultured fat immediately brings the juiciness to the plant based meat alternatives. So this is this is a fact this is this happens immediately by adding cultured fat to the to the mix of ingredients without any other kind of intravenous. And then again, since it is a animal derived ingredient comes from animal cells, we can actually also additionally offer the, the taste of animal fats to the end product. Wishing again increases let’s say the meatiness of the final product was just one ingredient. So that’s why we believe in it. And I think many of many others share this opinion at least from what we can see.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So that So a couple of things. One is by by creating that cell based fat it enhances the taste as you say of plant based foods. It makes it much closer to the original that we’re all trying to get to in terms of the target Obviously, because you’re replicating those cells from very, very small number of cells, it’s it’s far more sustainable than just take it, it’s, you know, someone might listen to this and be a bit confused, are they taking fat from animals? And then they’re sort of just taking that fat and adding it to plant based? Why is it then plant based? The reality is, those cells have been many been grown outside of the animal, so far more sustainable in terms of water, livestock, you know, space that we would need if we were using it, if we were growing the animal, the food, you know, all of the normal arguments against kind of pure factory farming and animal protein. I guess one question I have is, I know the debate is raging, but is cell based, vegan or is cell based non animal at the end of the day. And I think I know that there are vegans out there who are quite happily happily trying their cell based meats and saying, I’m fine with this. And there are other vegans out there who are saying cell based I would never touch this, because it’s still derived from an animal.

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Yeah, I think I mean, I think both both options are right. That means it is still from an animal origin. But obviously, no single animal has been slaughtered for it. Right. So if you’re vegan, because of ethical reasons, I think you could actually choose cultured ingredients as part of your diet. If you are having health issues because of animal origin compounds, then I understand that you also stay away from from cultured ingredients, but it’s up to it’s up to the consumer to decide what he or she prefers, right. So we can only offer this as a as another option to the diet. And people, some people will choose to try it and to continue eating it and others, you know, might just try it once or not at all. And then, you know, just continue with a completely plant based ingredient, which is, of course, a diet, which is of course also fine. Perfect. I just want to maybe come back to what you mentioned about sustainability, because I think that’s an important subject. In general, I would say the cultured meat industry wants to do better, right, but we still need to prove that we can do better, we are saving animal slaughter That goes without saying, normally we will be using less land. And our intention is to do to use less water and less energy. But even one most recent studies are showing very promising numbers. There is still as far as I know, right now, not a single company on the planet who really went into full scale production. So we don’t really have real data yet. And I’m always a bit on the not on the pessimistic side but unrealistic sides you know, we really need to figure out if this is really as sustainable as we all want to and it will be I’m sure, but we still need to prove it this just do anything what I wanted to say, especially when it comes to the feedstock of the cells as well. So we need to make sure that whatever we feed ourselves so they can grow and turn into meat or fat or anything else at some point that that also is sustainable.

 

Andrew D Ive  

You’re absolutely right. I think the logic tells us it should be more sustainable because you know, we’re growing the cells in ultimately you know, more increasingly larger numbers in a in a commercial environment you know, we don’t need the the acres or the you know, the land that we typically need to grow X number of 1000, pigs, chickens, cows, etc. We’re not having to give them water for their lifetime. We’re not having to feed them for their lifetime. We’re not giving them a lot of antibiotics, you know, for cell base, you don’t need lots of antibiotics to keep them healthy in those kinds of environments. So logic tells us it should work but you’re right. And I’ve talked about this before. Right now there are a number of small teams of people around the world getting very very excited and enthusiastic about the the potential and the opportunity and and what they can do in their, in their labs and in their in their cleaning environments. But only a few companies are trying to right now commercially scale it. You guys are one of them, maybe you could argue Memphis meats would be if they rebranded anyway, whatever. Memphis meats are also a company that’s pushing to commercialize this the scale of cell based production. But but you guys, you know, I don’t know many others that are trying to do that yet. So in terms of proving it the jury’s still

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

out. Yes, correct.

 

Andrew D Ive  

All right, let’s, let’s go back. Let’s go back in time just a little bit. Let’s talk and please to kind of take me through the history of Peace of Meat I how you guys got started, you know, was it you and another champion? in a coffee shop somewhere who just sort of had this moment where, you know, why don’t we do this? How did it all get started? And what were the motivations?

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Okay. Well, before actually started for me, I was fully into blockchain technologies. So I’m an engineer by education, and I’ve worked in it for more than 15 years, and for the past 15 years, then in blockchain technologies before actually deciding to switch my career focus and also dive into other industries. Now, in general, I’ve always been driven by technological innovations. So many things have always been on my radar. And I’ve always tried to build prototypes in one direction or another. But it wasn’t until I was approached by an artist couple actually, who wants to know about the status of cultured meat in general to see whether or not you know, they could do some of the crazy things that they had in mind back then already few years ago. And since I was accepting also assignments a little bit as an innovation consultant, I took on the job and I connected with, with Mark Posts, and he got me some great insights in what cultured meat was and how it was really made. So I literally witnessed how they produce the first cultured meat burger back then. And I was I was completely blown away. I mean, it’s like, well, this is this is amazing, first of all, and second of all, I could see all the problems, all the challenges, all the shortcomings. And for an engineer, that’s fantastic, right? Because we love problems, we love problems, because we want to solve them. And afterwards I was okay, look. This has sparked my interest, to say the least. And so I started digging into the science a bit to technology, I started spreading my wings a little bit reaching out to people connecting now expanding my network a little bit and pitching fuse crazy ideas. And back then it was just me, myself and I and then remember I once made a sending a pitch to new harvest with a team slide that had really like me myself and not in there, like with three different pictures and three different names. Obviously, I didn’t get any grant, but I mean, yeah, I mean, I was an IT engineer, right? So what do you want. But nevertheless, I did find people who did believe in me in the driving force in, in my energy in the dynamics division of where I wanted to go. And in Belgium, I really started putting together some pieces of a puzzle that I could potentially help solve. And that was around a cultural foreground. In collaboration with with Flanders food organization, for example, and Cal living, to name just a few of the people in that Consortium. And at the same time, as I was saying, like, Okay, this is this is just too much for me, personally, I really need other people on board who share this vision, who really want to do this together with me, literally. And soon after I met, I met David and I met also Eva. We worked to work together full time for a couple of months. And after that we decided okay, we’ve now come at a point where we need to formalize this collaboration and we decided to incorporate pieces of meat in August 2019.

 

Andrew D Ive  

And it’s PE PE AC E of Yes,

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

By bringing peace to the meat industry. Fantastic. Yeah. Because it’s my It’s my opinion that, you know, whatever we do in the cultured meat space, we can do that, of course for vegan products, or let’s say alternative meat products. But we could as well do that for the for the conventional industry, right? I mean, in a transitional periods, it’s a bit weird to imagine that cultured meat will disrupt the conventional meat space, just like like that. That’s that’s possible. I mean, everything is a devolution, right? We need to work together. There’s a lot of knowledge and experience also in the conventional meat industry, there’s many ways to collaborate with both the conventional meat industry and the plant based meat industry or the vegan industry for cultured meat company that is, in my opinion, and that’s why I thought the word piece of meat was actually well chosen, like, you know, we can, we can work with all the industries, it’s like a good middle way. It’s it’s practical, it’s it’s solution oriented. And it’s it really avoids going into conflict constantly with one another.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Yeah, I’m never sure why when disruptive companies come along, people consider that to be threatening, and it’s going to ultimately replace or get rid of the the existing companies in the traditional industry. Now, it may change or evolve the traditional industry. But you know, the existing players, the people that were there first, from a corporate company perspective, they have a good understanding of the channels of distribution of the consumer, they’ve got salutely, they’ve got things to bring to the table. And just and if a technology comes along the disrupts, it’s an opportunity to improve, as opposed to replace completely and start all over again. It’s just

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

interesting, correct? Correct. It’s like, for example, if you would, if you would create some kind of synthetic beer, just by the push of the button, you know, you can get any type of beer that you want from a machine, it doesn’t mean that the traditional breweries will cease to exist, just because there’s another kind of technology that, of course, has a lot of benefits also, when it comes to sustainability, right. So you stop shipping 90%, water worldwide, etc. But it doesn’t mean it will replace an industry that is 1000s of years old. That’s just doesn’t happen overnight.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Absolutely. Absolutely. So you mentioned that piece of meat was acquired. I think he mentioned Meat 3d meet tech as the company that yes, did the acquiring. Take us, as far as I know, and maybe I’m sure you know, better than I do. Were you the first cell based company to go through an acquisition with a public company? Is this a kind of? Is this a world’s first or is this you know, this happens all the time. And we just don’t necessarily see it? Because it’s all you know, behind the scenes.

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

I’m not focused on these kinds of things, but a lot, it might well be yes, that we were the first company to be acquired in the space, just as we might also have been the first company to have been given a significant government grant. So we received 3.6 million euro with a consortium of players in Flanders to work on cultured fuax grax in December 20 to 2019 already. And as far as I know, there was no bigger grant given to any cultured meat company, at least by government. Until then, just as I’m saying, as far as I know, I think there has been another company acquired in the space yet.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Got it. So take us through that process. Obviously, there might be things that you can’t talk about or so if if that’s the case, obviously don’t and you won’t anyway, but take us through as you know, you guys started You started it, then David and other folks came on board 2019, you got a great grant from Flanders, etc, very supportive from the government, which, you know, very forward thinking of the government at that point in time. What you guys are obviously, driving this forward, what made the decision to even consider an acquisition, how did that start? How did that conversation start and what were some of the thought processes, either you had as a, as a person, individual or as a team in terms of, you know, that that exit,

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

you know, well, when when the question was first asked by, by me tech We were all surprised. And we didn’t even believe it. Like, are they for real? Like? Right? Obviously, we realized that we were making a lot of progress really fast thing that’s, that’s one of the characteristics of our team. We move fast, we’re very dynamic, we act fast. And the whole team that we have also built today is like that now. So after a while, we started accepting that idea, at least that that offer was also on the table. So we, we started discussing them. In parallel, we also had the option to go for the typical sfbc investment option with a very good lead investor and some great follow on investors. And actually, around the same time, we had two contracts, like fully prepared by by all the lawyers, just what was missing was a signature here or there. Can you see that position? So what do you pick? So what was for us, the decisive moment was that we realized that if we would go for the acquisition, that we would have available to us for the next two years, the Double of the budget that we would have, if we would have chosen the other option. And since we are primarily focused on upscaling the production, and since we realized that we need a lot of resources for that, just having twice the amount of budget to go, there was for us, like a very important argument. I don’t need to tell you that, you know, this wasn’t decided overnight, and we really had many, many discussions on which to which way to go. But in the end, you know, the the balance tipped towards the acquisition, and that’s what we did, and we haven’t regretted it every single second.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Perfect. So now you’ve got double the resources to execute on your your mission and your growth. He said, You haven’t regretted it for a single second, I’m sure you’re being absolutely. Frank about that. Did it create any change in culture or in any change in how you guys work as a team or what you need, you know, what you need to do to kind of move the business forward? Or is it basically exactly the same, and they’re just sort of letting you get on with it. And life is life is exactly the same. But now you’ve just got a lot more money to execute on the mission.

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

It’s even going a lot faster than before. That means we’re hiring people on a continuous basis. We’re buying equipment on a continuous basis. People are certainly cursing behind my back, you know, because of all the people in the staff coming in continuously, we’ve we’ve doubled the size, or even tripled by now the size of our lab space. And we’re already thinking like, oh, man, it’s going to be too small as well, maybe Who knows? next year? Yeah. So it gives us a lot of challenges, right. And as you know, I love challenges, and I love solving problems. But the others on the team also need to follow to follow me and David. And they are and we’re trying to create a really healthy environment, obviously, for people to work in. But yeah, we’re making good progress. And we’re really moving even faster than we did before. And that, of course, is a change. And that’s, that’s clear. On the other hand, you could argue, okay, I’m not a shareholder of Peace of Meat anymore. That’s correct. But I’m also now shareholder of meat tech, right? So for us, that really didn’t change a lot. Although, you could say that since we are also milestone driven, that might interfere with let’s say, the decision making process once in a while, but it really doesn’t know. So since our objectives have been very clear from the beginning, that is to reach upscaled production volumes. We are now say, at Liberty between parenthesis to you know, go all the way at least for two years and that’s that’s fantastic.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So two things I’d like to cover one. I hope I remember the second thing by the time we’ve talked about the first thing give us just kind of a quick snapshot. Not over time you started there was you then you added David and who was the third person again, Eva, Eva? You know, then you Got the $3 million grant, then you sort of grew the business take us through, you mentioned you’ve been adding more and more people to the team. what’s what’s been that growth, like from a people and our team perspective? So you’ve gone 1-3? Take us through some of those sort of milestones. Where are you at now, by the way, in terms of people?

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Honestly, I don’t know anymore.

 

Andrew D Ive  

I thought you’re gonna say,

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Yeah, I also don’t think it’s really relevant, right? The number of people, it’s like, when I last checked the numbers, the word 10 people on the payroll, right. Since then, we’ve interviewed and hired even more, so I don’t really know anymore. So we’re less we’re less than 15. That I know. But but we’re hiring on a continuous basis.

 

Andrew D Ive  

I think the reason I’m asking is because any founders, any entrepreneurs out there, just I want to give them a sort of an order of magnitude of, you know, this is the kind of pace of growth that you might experience as an as a new founder. So I’m not necessarily interested in you saying, well, we had three here and seven hearing, you know, 12 here, as much. As you know, we’ve doubled and tripled over the last 12 months. And the other question I think they would be interested in if they were founders listening to this is, you know, how do you, you know, one of the things most founders, CEOs and early stage teams do is find think about the culture that they want to create, in their firm, they want to do things maybe differently than companies they’ve worked in in the past, or that they’ve seen in the past. How do you try and keep hold of that culture or make sure that that culture grows in the right way as you’re scaling? From a recruitment perspective? so quickly? How do you hold on to what, how do you hold on to what’s special about Peace of Meat and what you’ve been building so far?

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Yeah, that’s actually a very good question. And it’s not an easy task, right? I mean, growing so fast, in all honesty, I would prefer that by the end of the year pieces, meters already with 20 people, because we definitely need that kind of that many people, you know, this, this, just so much things to do so much. Rows to follow, and paths to explore this, this really enough work for even 40 people, let’s say, but realistically, I would say if we’re getting get to 15, between 15 and 20 people by the end of the year, that will be already great. And next to that, to answer your question, yes. We talked about that a lot. In the beginning, we grew organically. But then you need to really start implementing some kind of what Professor Paul mazzi Acharya Chief Scientific Officer would say, we need to implement a chain of command. Right, so Dr. mosiac, as the CSO was responsible for the scientific team. After a while, he also decided to divide people into small teams. And now these teams have gotten also team leaders. underneath each team, the number of scientists is growing, one of the teams is already relatively big. So there might be also like sub teams coming. So we tried to do that little bit, still organically, but at the same time, also better organized. And with a clear, let’s say, reporting chain. So normally, things do not easily turn up on my desk anymore, like the smaller issues, although it’s still possible, right? Because I’m always there on the floor. But nevertheless, by respecting a little bit, the chain of command, and the team leadership and the you know, the different teams growing in different directions, still working closely together. We have been so far, able to manage it quite well, I would say.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Perfect. How would you describe the Peace of Meat culture?

 

Unknown Speaker  

Nuts?

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think in general, we’re very dynamic, result driven team. And internally, we make a lot of progress very fast, and we have the resources to do it. So this is really typical for Peace of Meat, a very dynamic, open minded company, everybody in there really goes for it all the way and is of course passionate about what he or she is doing. And that’s that’s how we like it. That’s how it should be. And of course, I hope and pray that we can continue to keep this spirit also In the future, when the team grows bigger will become a challenge. But we will do anything we can really to, to to listen to everybody, not to just impose our commands, but really work with the people give everybody a voice, you know, these kind of things. We’ve been doing it also in the past, and we will continue to do it, of course, in the future. Perfect.

 

Andrew D Ive  

You mentioned a few times when describing the choice between the VC term sheets and supporting VC investors versus the acquisition. You kind of talked about a two year cycle of resources ahead. So you know, you decided to choose the acquisition, because you’ve got two years of double the resources. What happens? You know, what, what happens at the end of that two years? Is that about getting a new budget or, like, I’m wondering why that two years is a thing.

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

That was basically part of the conditions of the of the sales and purchase agreement, right. So some conditions have been put forward, have been negotiated. And we decided upon a two year trajectory to reach certain milestones together. So that’s why the two years has been embedded into this agreement. Afterwards, of course, we will continue right, we will not stop at certain volumes, we need to go to the fully operational factories. And for that we need obviously still a little bit more than two years. But we’re already planning this and talking to governments that we can work together with, you know, in different countries as well. We’re based in Flanders, and Antwerp, City of Antwerp, and the Flemish government has been highly supportive of us. So we’re, of course, also very happy to continue that collaboration. But we’re working towards bigger scale factories. And yeah, for that new investments will need to come on board, and so on and so on. And that’s a different kind of focus, right? I mean, or an additional focus, let’s say. So you will probably hear us talking more about what we are doing now until the end of next year. But what comes after is, of course, the continuance of what we’re doing today.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Absolutely. So you mentioned that Flanders was was forward thinking versus most other governments by backing you guys by, you know, giving a good sized grant on the cell based side, as you know, today, and the only country that allows the sale of cell based meat, seafood or dairy is Singapore. Do you see Flanders because of that forward thinking approach, that they’ll be a country that will deregulate and allow the sale of the cell based products to for human consumption? Or is that just I mean, obviously, you’ve got so many other things to worry about, maybe that’s not on your radar screen at all. But what what would be your prediction of, you know, either other countries or Flanders in particular, as far as, you know, allowing the consumption and sale of these these ingredients?

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Well, I think like all European companies, we will go for European approval. It’s called the novel food procedure that we all have to go through. So once we have reached the final stage of our prototype, that means a real prototype that is ready to go into production is the next step, not what I would call a proof of concept that you can take a picture of, and, you know, write an article about once you reached a real prototype stage, then you can file for regulatory approval, you go to the novel, through procedures still takes some time, because this includes many different steps, may different tests and so on, before you can actually get an approval for your product as a food ingredient. And this is what we’re going to do. We didn’t start that yet. But obviously, we have been well, we are well prepared. We know what to do, where to do it and with whom to do it as soon as we’ve reached that prototype stage. And I cannot tell you when that will be. But the sooner the better, obviously.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So two steps, at least well, multiple steps, but two big milestones. One is getting the production, the technology, etc, to the point where it’s a it’s a commercially viable product. And second, then you would start going through the novel, novel food. Is that what you call it novel first, through approval process with the European community. Does anyone have any kind of suggested timelines of what the European community would you know, the Of how long the European community would typically take to go through that process. Is it a, you know, is it a one year or five year process or somewhere in between.

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

As nobody has done it yet, I cannot tell you how long it will take. But we’re expecting around the year, approximately, hopefully, I’m not expecting less could it could also be a year and a half, who knows, but some, some company needs to do it, as the first cultured meat company might be asked might be one of our colleagues, I don’t know. But it’s important that I mean, in my opinion, it’s important that you wait until you’ve reached a very mature prototype stage. Otherwise, it’s a waste of money and time. And because you have to repeat the process if you change your product. I mean, today, we could also create, let’s say, plant based nuggets with our cultured fat inside and you know, sell that to the customer. That’s perfectly possible we could do that. And like in the restaurant, but we’re not doing it because we’re like, Okay, this is not our final product. If we want to create a hype. Yeah, we could, but you know, we prefer to focus on the on, you know, the development?

 

Andrew D Ive  

would be I don’t know that you’ll be allowed to sell it, though, would you?

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

No, we wouldn’t? Exactly, yeah, but we could do it in Singapore, for example.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Okay, so got it. So in terms of other countries, is this Do you see this? Is this something you guys need to do in Europe? And once you’ve done it in Europe, then you’ll only be limp, you’ll be limited? Not not the being able to sell something across Europe not limited, but you wouldn’t then be able to sell it in the US, I guess what I’m wondering about is do you need to get approval company by company in the cell based category. So you guys would need to get approval for your product in Europe, and then you would need to go and get approval for your product in North America, etc, etc. Or is it you know, cell based needs to get approved. And once you’ve once it’s done that you guys will be able to sell your product in multiple markets who have signed on, if you like, to the fact that cell based is identical at the cellular level to the meat we’ve been eating for hundreds of years.

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

As far as I know, every single company will need to apply separately. And when it comes to region, yes, we’ll have to apply in Europe, as well as in the United States, as well as in Asia, etc. Once multiple companies have applied, maybe there will be some changes in the regulatory framework that of course, I cannot predict. But I think it’s logical that every single company needs to apply because every single company is using different techniques, different processes, different cell types, for example, different feedstock. So all these kind of things are important for the regulator to know and need to be very well documented, including, of course, also, where the genetic material comes from, it’s very important that the animal cells that are that you’re using, are actually also allowed to be used for commercial purposes. That’s why we I’ve always said from the very beginning, like, Look, okay, if we’re going to use the genetic material of certain animal, we need to talk to the breeders because they need to give us permission. And we know that there are certain breeders out there, who do not give permission to cultivate companies to use genetic materials for commercial purposes. So you have to be careful where you get your cells from.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So there’s like a copyright equivalent for animals where if you buy an animal, and from a farmer, the farmer owns the copyright of that animal.

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

I wouldn’t say it’s a copyright. But imagine that you have a breeder that has spent decades on developing a certain species and really making money in our case with the eggs, with the animals sells the animals, like like for meat or for the eggs. And then all of a sudden you just buy the say, hundreds of 1000s of eggs, what you want to use to create your cell line with and then you say, Okay, that was nice, you know, we’ve, we’ve spent a few $1,000 with you, but now we’re going to say bye bye. And we’re going to use it to disrupt your own industry, they will not like that. Yes, yeah. That’s totally logical, right? That you just work together and that you make make damn sure that whatever source that you’re using that you know, you have a good agreement with the breeder.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Perfect. So one more question before we sort of I asked the last question that I normally ask the one Question is, you guys started early? What year? Did you start into it? 2018 2017 August 2019 2019, you guys got $3 million from Flanders, you ended up getting investment from us and others. Eventually, you guys got a big chunk of change for the acquisition by 3d Meat Tech. If there are founders out there who are like you, you know, engineers who see problems that need to be stopped. Well, actually, that’s if there are engineers out there who are looking at this and thinking, you know, is there still problems that need to be solved? Can I add value to this? You know, this categories of cell based? Are there already enough companies solving these problems? Like you guys? Is there still room for somebody to start from today or tomorrow and kind of get get involved in this in this industry and this opportunity, or all of the good seats at the table already taken?

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Absolutely not. So if there’s one thing that I can immediately tell those people is that we are the industry, in general, in my opinion, desperately needs sustainable solutions for the feedstock of ourselves. So we’re using several compounds in our medium that our cells need and eat, to grow, to duplicate and to turn into muscle or fat or anything else. We need products like amino acids that are sustainable. And today, we’re on a quest to find out how sustainable the compounds that we’re purchasing from established suppliers are actually sustainable. Right? What is the ecological footprint of these of these compounds? We need to know? And I’m a bit afraid that we will not like the answer if we find out. So any initiative working on sustainable compounds for the media that we’re using? I would, I would embrace that immediately.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So there’s a scientist or a couple of scientists in a lab somewhere who are wondering, where do they go now with their future? They could be the answer to this problem or one answer to this problem if they start dedicating their time and thoughts to solving some of these problems, that in other words, there’s still enough problems, challenges, opportunities, innovations required for the cell based industry, for many people to be busy for decades ahead.

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that’s just one example. And there’s many other examples I could give.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Awesome. So where would people get a hold of Dirk and Peace of Meat if they wanted to become one of your ever growing team of people if they wanted to, you know, support what you’re doing, you know, somehow get involved, where would be a good place for them to engage with Peace of Meat. Find me on LinkedIn, and fight me for a beer. Real beer or a synthetic beer that doesn’t require shipping?

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

The molecular beer, that would be nice. That’d be lovely, wouldn’t it?

 

Andrew D Ive  

So give people your LinkedIn, you know your full name so that people can find you on LinkedIn.

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Okay, that’s a challenge. You have to look me up under the name Heinrichshorst , which is German. That’s because I’ve lived many years in Germany, but I’m not German. And you spell it as follows. It’s…

 

H, e, i, n, r, i c h s, h o r s t.

 

If that doesn’t work, just Google Peace of Meat and you’ll find our website and our LinkedIn page.

 

Andrew D Ive  

And Peace of Meat again for folks is peace. P-E-A-C-E, as it peace, hyphen, of hyphen Maet.com. Or is it 

 

Unknown Speaker  

correct? Yes. So Dirk@peace-of-meet.com with the hyphens also works.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Awesome. So if anyone needs to find you to give you help, love and support, those are some of the ways they can do so. Any last thoughts before we run off for today?

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Not really, I wish everybody a great day and a lot of inspiration, right? So for me, technological innovations have driven my entire career. And I know that’s the same for a lot of other people. And while innovating, we’re trying to create, say, a better world for everyone. And that’s that’s the main driver of many of us. And that’s also something I wish to stimulate. That we need to keep doing this. And hopefully that leads to really great discoveries also in the near future.

 

Andrew D Ive  

I think that’s that’s a perfect way to end this. Also interesting that of all of the things you’ve tried to accomplish in your career, some of which are, you know, potentially changing the world. Tackling daily, enormous challenges that are reinventing or evolving an industry, the most difficult thing for you is actually finding your LinkedIn using your, your, your German name. I think of all the problems you’ve encountered, I’m surprised you think that’s the most difficult. Alright, I really enjoyed having a conversation with you again, anyone listening to this, if you want to reach out to PCE PE AC E of meat, please do. So super great team super great people doing amazing things. I’m going to stay stuck and I’m going to pause the video. Perfect.

 

Dirk von Heinrichshorst  

Thanks again.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Dirk from Peace of Meat. Thanks for coming along today. I hope you do subscribe to this podcast, and so that we can give you updates as we bring them to you on a weekly basis. So if you have questions or comments, please do reach out to Dirk or to us. Please do like and subscribe. Thanks a lot. This is Andrew from Big Idea Ventures. And this is the big idea food podcast. Many thanks until next week.

Post Headline Formula: Podcast #12: Meat The End Founder and CEO, Yishai Mishor speaks with Andrew D. Ive from Big Idea Ventures about starting a company that has produced innovations in extrusion processing that make plant based products that mimic the texture of animal protein.

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Meat The End

Their unique production techniques build a texture that really feels like meat.

www.meattheend,tech

 

Big Idea Ventures

Our mission is to solve the world’s greatest challenges by backing the world’s best entrepreneurs

 

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Big Idea Food Podcast Host

Andrew D. Ive, Big Idea Ventures Founder

Andrew is the founder of Big Idea Ventures. BIV’s purpose is to solve the world’s greatest challenges by supporting the world’s best entrepreneurs. Our first fund + accelerator (NY, Singapore, and Paris) invests in plant-based foods and ingredients to impact climate change, animal welfare, and personal health. Investors include Tyson Foods & Temasek. Our second fund is focused on reducing CO2, plastics, waste, and water in the food industry. Friedman School Entrepreneurship Advisor. Harvard Business School graduate, Procter & Gamble brand management trained. 

 

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Transcript

 

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

texture, technology, meat, company, producers, questions, plant based, burger, product, startup, people, real, business, tvp, sell, extruder, big, industry, potential clients, terms

SPEAKERS

Yishai Mishor, Andrew D Ive

 

Andrew D Ive  

Welcome to the big idea food podcast. I’m Andrew D, Ive your host from Big Idea Ventures. Today we’re going to be talking to Yishai, the CEO and co founder of Meat The End. These guys are focused on a new technology that will make meat, plant based meat in particular, have the right texture, so that people who are tasting, biting chewing this plant based meat won’t tell the difference between plant based and regular meat. It’s a tough challenge. I think these guys are up to it. Let’s have a conversation with Yishai and find out more about Meat The End. Welcome to the big idea food podcast. How are you sir?

 

Yishai Mishor  

I’m very good. Thanks for having me Andrew.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So Meat The End. Great company. We love you guys. We were just talking about that. Tell us all about what you’re up to, and why you’re a big idea.

 

Yishai Mishor  

I was thinking before coming here, where should I go with these questions? Should I tell Andrew about the beginning or about the future.

 

Andrew D Ive  

We have 45 minutes, so we can start at the beginning and go through to the future.

 

Yishai Mishor  

The three liner I always tell people when they ask me what we do, is to tell them we are in the food tech business, developing production techniques in order to improve the texture of plant based meat alternatives.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So why does plant based meat alternatives need to improve their texture? 

 

Yishai Mishor  

Have you eaten plant based burgers?  I have many, many, many times  They have a really good, and some of the famous companies have achieved really incredible results in terms of taste, but when it comes to texture, to what you feel in your mouth when you chew, it’s really mediocre and I think that description is right for virtually every product on the market.

 

Andrew D Ive  

And do you think that texture is the missing piece of the puzzle so that this kind of plant based meat experience is complete?

 

Yishai Mishor  

There are tons of studies, blind taste testing and so on, to support that this is the roadblock for consumer satisfaction, and when I say consumer, I mean those who are meat eaters who are considering switching, so basically potential flexitarians. These guys are the best, the most interesting and the biggest segment that we’re looking at and, for them, texture is a major problem. I think I told you yesterday about a study, where they ask people is this fake meat or real meat. They do it with chicken with beef with pork and 100% of the tasters can tell 100% of the times whether it’s real meat or alternative and the reason is mostly about the texture.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So they’re so they’re taking a bite of this plant based whatever it is, and it may taste pretty darn close to the original. It may smell after it’s cooked, very similar to the original. But the one giveaway is texture.

 

Yishai Mishor  

It’s definitely a bottleneck for the industry. And the reason I’m saying this was so much, you know, confidence is because the entire industry is using the same technology to get the texture. So everyone’s using the same technology, everyone’s getting to more or less same level of same form of texture. And it’s it’s and it’s medium, it’s not very good for them.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So they’re all using the same machines and the same processes today to get to the texture they arrive at and it’s just not quite getting far enough to normal or to what is the usual experience with meat?

 

Yishai Mishor  

Absolutely. And I mean, who can blame them right? It’s a very complicated process to take plant protein, which has its own shape, form and body and turn it into something that resembles animal protein. This is not an obvious task at all. You said something about taste you know today you can buy fragrances and flavors that will basically give you the flavor of anything. You can have salmon without salmon and chicken without chicken and beef without beef. So the taste issue, still under development and there are companies that are doing really interesting stuff with it but I think where almost there.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Who are some of those companies that are doing interesting things on the tech side..

 

Yishai Mishor  

The most famous is of course Impossible Foods with their beam. Beam gives you a bloody irony feel to your taste and it also does something in the experience of cooking. Which is another important thing. If you use the Impossible Patty and put it on the grill, you will see how it turns from gray on the outside. I mean, it’s still red on the inside and gray on the outside, just like real meat. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

So the kind of distinction between Impossible and most other plant based burgers and meats out there, is that beam, that redness, that bloody kind of experience, that one thing that makes them more like the original meat product they’re replacing. Is this with Meat The End and your ability to get that texture right for the first time, is that the kind of impossible difference that your customers can ultimately have? Obviously, it’s not hean but it’s one step closer to the real deal.

 

Yishai Mishor  

Absolutely. And the goal we set for ourselves was not just to improve texture, but to improve texture in a way which is effective and that is easily adopted by the industry. So we’re looking for a solution that is cheap and that doesn’t require too much change in machinery, production lines, and so on. I think that that means that by the time we will become commercial in about a year from now, if you have a production line for tbp, which is basically the beginning of the road for plant based burger, you will be able to adopt our technology with our relatively low costs and short term and effectively improve texture performance.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Okay, so are there other companies trying to solve this particular problem? As far as the texture issue is concerned?

 

Yishai Mishor  

Can I please answer and then you’ll ask me another time? And then I’ll answer it again, because I have two different answers for this one. The first answer is that, sure. Think 3d printing. What 3d printing companies do is basically about actual even cultured meat. I mean, definitely the questions, the challenges they’re facing, many of them are around questions of body of texture and so on. There’s also a few more traditional technologies that are out there, such as fermentation and some enzymatic treatments, that they are doing so basically, there are some ideas out there. However, 3d printing and meat grown in labs these are the two most famous so you know, most science fiction technologies are science fiction. It’s going to take at least five years if not 10, before they become commercial and there’s a big issue around that.

 

Andrew D Ive  

I never really gravitated towards the 3d printing technology because, having been to a slaughterhouse, I’m sort of aware of the sheer volume of meat that is processed on an hourly, daily, weekly basis and for a 3d printer to get anything like that scale of production, so that it brings the price to a commercially viable, manageable level. I don’t see the technology getting there anytime soon. Now, I see there being sort of a novelty aspect of 3d printing where you can make a steak, you know, over a 20 minute period in a restaurant and wow people with the process, but yeah, I’m not seeing it. I don’t think it’s science fiction, but I don’t see it being commercially viable.  By the way Yishai, this is going to be on YouTube so you’re showing everyone your kitchen, which is awesome. I’m going to pause the video and see what you had in your kitchen cupboards at some point. So getting back to that question. You said your technology is going to be commercially available in a year. I’m guessing the next year is about hitting those metrics of not just, you know, can you get the texture right because I know having seen a lot of videos and seeing the product, that you can already get the texture right. This is more about making it available within the processes and making it available inexpensively, so that it’s commercially viable. I’m guessing that’s what the next 12 months is about? We call it optimization, some of the stuff you mentioned and a few other things. But yeah, we need to make sure that ours is a process that not just works but works on a large scale and can be easily adopted by large scale producers. Perfect. I’m guessing there are companies out there, not necessarily Impossible or Beyond, but there are companies out there who are looking to find the answer to this texture problem.  Are you anticipating over the next 12 months, working with any of them? whether it’s from a prototyping perspective, or from a trial perspective, to refine the optimization of your product?

 

Yishai Mishor  

We try to keep in touch. We are a very new company. We were just founded at the beginning of 2020 so only a year and a bit in the business. We’re trying to keep in touch with as many figures as we can from the large producers, you know, if not for bottom line agreements yet, but if not for that, then at least to be able to have one eye on the product and understanding what our potential clients think and what are their considerations.  So I know, there is some work being done in different giants of meat alternatives around that and it’s always like everything in innovation, some of it is really short term incremental change, something that can be achieved now or next year and some of it is far fetched, you know, revolutionary ideas, trying to be aware of the entire scope of innovation. I think that ours is a pretty solid idea that has the potential of doing some serious revolution in the business.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So if I’m a plant based meat producer, and I’m interested in your technology, because I think that getting the texture right or to help me increase my sales, my revenues, my share of market, or the traditional KPIs of building a great business. Is this an ingredient I buy from you that gets added to the product? Is this a piece of hardware that gets put in the production line to add an extra step in production to add that texture aspect? How are you and what is it you’re building? And how do I adopt it if I’m a large producer of plant based foods?

 

Yishai Mishor  

Our business model is called pure licensing. So we’re patenting our technology to be a bundle of patents that protects each product, and then selling licenses for producers to use. However, I’m telling you, frankly, we’re just you and me here in this conversation, we’re beginning to realize that we will have to have a step where we actually do it ourselves. So produce and sell our burgers, whether ourselves directly or through a third party, but having a period where we sell it to a specific market, could be Israel could be one of the European countries to prove to the world that what we do, actually, you know, sells and that it works. Then I’m sure that the ultimate dream of selling bases to huge producers will be much easier to achieve.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So I feel like I asked one question and, as is the kind of political background that you have, you answered a slightly different question. I was sort of getting to how, as a producer of plant based foods, do I adopt your technology?  If I’m a Beyond and I say this is technology we need, I think this is going to make our product just even more breakout than it already is because it’s going to finally have the right texture. I want this technology. I want to introduce it to my product tomorrow.  Is this something they put in the product which creates the texture, or is it part of the process of Production that adds that texture? You obviously have patents and things which protect you. So you don’t want to go into too much detail, but is it process or as ingredient?

 

Yishai Mishor  

I’m sorry not to give you a straight answer, but I’ll give you a straight explanation why I can’t do it. We are literally weeks away from submitting our first patent. Okay, as I told you, before we started the recording, we’re just finished the last round of experiments needed for the pattern. It’s happening this month and it’s the most delicate time of all times for a startup, based on high knowledge but it’s something that improves the process. It’s mostly about process.  There are many different ways for how a company can sell information or technique to other companies and there are different black boxes, you can sell parts of the machinery, you can sell the parts, or certain type of ingredients that are necessary. All these are mostly strategic questions that should be resolved with attention to the legal and the business side but we are now more preoccupied with the technology, we want to make sure that we have in our hands, a really good and effective technology to improve texture, all questions of fair business model and so on, how do we make sure that we’re not being copied? How do we make sure that we actually give advantage to our potential client? And those things will be answered in the right time? I think it’s a bit too soon.

 

Andrew D Ive  

And by the way, I love that you bring that up, and you sort of push back a little because this is a delicate time for you, which most entrepreneurs will go through. Okay, if we’ve got real IP here, how do we protect it? How do we make sure that we’re following the necessary steps to validate the business and get customers on board? but also how do we protect what we have and what is unique to our company? So I totally appreciate that. Let’s just back up a bit then, from a proof perspective that your technology actually delivers the kind of texture goals that you’ve set yourselves? How have you been able to prove it to yourself, and potentially prove it to your partners that you guys can do what you want to do as far as texture is concerned?

 

Yishai Mishor  

It’s a really great question and I was surprised that there was relatively little background in the literature to help us answer that question when we first approached them. What we do is we have a series of phrenological testing for our TVP and TVP we produce using our topology…..

 

Andrew D Ive  

What does TVP stand for? 

 

Yishai Mishor  

TVP is texturized vegetable protein. The building blocks of plant based burgers and other meat alternatives. Basically, we’re talking about a huge machine called an extruder. On one side, the input is a protein powder, for example. So 70% soy concentrate. It applies heat, pressure and shear force. On the other side, you got flakes a little bit like cornflakes. Cornflakes are made with the same technology, and that’s the texturized soy protein that goes on. This is the stuff that is the body of your burger or Patty.o that So we measured TVP with different neurological testing, there’s an instrument called the texture analyzer and different attachments that go to it and measuring that. I was surprised to see that leading companies in the world such as ADM, DuPont, Circle 40 that sell TVP, If you ask for a brochure with information about the TVP that they sell, they’ll give you stuff that includes nutrition facts and water holding capacity and so on, there is hardly any information about texture.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Despite the fact that texture is one of the key requirements for a great end product..

 

Yishai Mishor  

Exactly, and this is a tension that it’s really surprising, but then again, I’m saying okay, that means we’re onto something, because we know for a fact that it’s a major issue for the consumer and we know for a fact that it’s almost non existant in the discussion between backdoor companies that produce TVP and producers of a burger.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So let’s get back to it in terms of current plant based patties, let’s say that there’s a 100% measure which is the real texture, the real taste of a regular hamburger, beef, burger, whatever, burger where are you? Where do you think the current plant based versions are in terms of that full experience? From a texture perspective? Are they kind of getting to 70%? Are they getting to 60%? Are they getting to 80%? Is that it? Do you have any further? I mean, maybe this is your personal point of view, but the current plant based products, how close are they to the real thing? Maybe there’s a report, maybe there isn’t. But you know, what’s your, what’s your feel on this?

 

Yishai Mishor  

I think they’re really far away as they are pretty spongy. It’s got a almost gooey feeling when you chew it. There are many different ways to describe texture and when you have sensory panels, either professional or just lay people tasting and giving feedback, It’s a problem. I’m not sure it’s possible to give a number between zero and 100, but there are in general as there is analytical testing, where you get instruments that are checking physical or chemical properties of the material, and then sensory, which basically means people eating and giving you feedback, which is obviously more subjective.  So there’s human and sensory and there’s instrumental, a more analytical examination. Obviously, for instrumental, it’s much more because it’s subjective, and it’s numbers, it’s much easier to show where we stand and so on, I can tell you that we tested ours against the most leading products in the market, and we are slightly below twice in terms of firmness and several other characteristics of texture. So we’re doing really well in that sensory panel but it is less objective and a bit more complicated to analyze. But what we do, in order to get it there, is we have our fixed recipe for a burger which is like our model burger.

 

Andrew D Ive  

And then you pick a burger, which is probably the kind of market norm for a plant based burger and that’s the target or that’s the standard

 

Yishai Mishor  

We try our stuff against other people’s TVP …

 

Andrew D Ive  

Got it. So your, as far as the science is concerned, or the analytics is concerned, yours is twice as effective from a texture perspective as the kind of norm or the standard if there is such a thing.

 

Yishai Mishor  

It’s very easy to play with numbers and I don’t want to be one of those people saying, Yeah, you should see we have five times more than that and 10 times more than that. I understand that texture is a very complicated issue because at the end of the day, it’s a human experience. We absolutely have data that shows that we are twice I mean that we are double better than the eight competitors in terms of specific texture characteristics, right.  There are some improvements that need to be done. In the end. I want you to take a bite of this patty and not be able to tell whether it’s made of cow or made of soy pea protein or wheat or whatever, exactly indistinguishable from animal protein.

 

Andrew D Ive  

And that’s the goal. That’s the kind of Holy Grail as far as texture is concerned, someone not knowing the difference. Now, I’d love to, if we had a two hour slot of time, to kind of get into what is texture in the mouth and what are we really experiencing when we’re biting things but I’m guessing I’d lose half of the audience as well. All three people that are listening right now one and a half of those three people would give up and go do something else. So you believe that this is a 12 months, you’ve got about a 12 month cycle left in terms of having this product and or process available for customers to use, whether that’s Beyond Impossible or any of the others, it’s about a 12 month cycle.

 

Yishai Mishor  

When I speak to investors, I promised them by the end of quarter three for the next year, so about 12 to 15 months from now.

 

Andrew D Ive  

And you mentioned, one thing you’re going to do in between is manufacture some of your own products, where you know, your texture is far, far superior to what’s out there today, and actually launch those in a market to, to kind of prove it.

 

Yishai Mishor  

This will be the first commercial step. I mean, this is what we’re looking to do as our first app, once we get commercial, this is what we did, thinking of this as a go to market strategy.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Got it understood. When you’re talking about one businesmodel, which is about the kind of technology which allows the end producer to produce something far better for their consumers, which gives them, the consumers, the experience they’re waiting for from plant based. On the other, you’re going to, and this is, you know, I’m going to put it this way on purpose, you’re going to mess around with making your own Patty and trying to create a brand and a product and a price point that’s achievable.  To prove a point in the market, and I get proving the point piece, I try and prove points all the time. But in terms of totally different business models, different team members in terms of being able to do this well, unless you outsource everything. Is it not potentially a bit of a distraction instead of just going and having the conversations with the key producers, and show them what you have and figure out how to partner with them..

 

Yishai Mishor  

I think the way to prove is to actually sell pudding, rather than tell everybody how amazing your pudding is. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

There’s a few examples that I can think of where knowledge was sold in the food business, but not before some products were sold. So first, there was movement of products and only then movements of information, buying their licenses for it. I’m guessing that if we prove ourselves in a particular market, be it Israel or somewhere in Western Europe, and confined to this territory I think that this can do tremendous work for both us and our potential clients and show them that this thing actually has massive impact potential. You know, thinking about how consumers make their ultimate purchasing decision, it always comes down to the mouth experience, the taste, the texture, and very little to do with the education. So I think you might be right, maybe the answer to getting folks understanding that your texture is so much better than what’s out there today, is getting that product in their mouths and getting them to experience it for themselves.

 

Yishai Mishor  

Remember, I said for you to ask me the same question twice, the one about how many and who else is doing texture out there?

 

Andrew D Ive  

But we’ve only got nine minutes. Is that what you want to spend the next nine minutes on?

 

Yishai Mishor  

Yes because it’s such a good story. So we we are working with extruders as discussed in the beginning of the interview.

 

Andrew D Ive  

This, for people who aren’t up to speed on the technology, is technology in production.

 

Yishai Mishor  

Sorry I did not get that …..

 

Andrew D Ive  

There are people out there who will not know what extruders are …. 

 

Yishai Mishor  

An extruder is kind of a whale. It’s a huge thing. It’s a huge mammal. The technology was born in the polymer and plastic industry and penetrated into food industry in the 70s and became more and more popular in the 90s. It’s good for producers because it has a very large productivity rate. So it can do tons, a day. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

It is an enormous machine. Really enormous.

 

Yishai Mishor  

The first time I saw this machine, we were working together with partners in Germany, comparing the producers affects on students. First time I saw it, I thought of like a Industrial Revolution, not food tech in the 21st century. It’s huge. It’s noisy, it’s messy, it’s got smoke, it’s very smelly. I loved it, it felt like real steam engines, like a monster and this thing is also pretty expensive and that’s the reason why, I don’t know of any startup in the world that is doing r&d around extrusion.  Of course, there are extruder producers. Huge companies like Bula, Oplex, style, and carry and they of course have their r&d innovation. But startups, a little company that starts with crazy ideas, like many startups, that you invest in and support in your business. I don’t know if anyone except us is doing it. The reason is that there’s a really high entry barrier. This machine costs several hundreds of 1000s of dollars just for this tiny lab scale.  So we are standing in front of a situation where most of the industries using this technology, and there’s hardly any innovative startup t activity around it. And that’s why I think there’s incredible potential in what we do, even if not focusing on the immediate, you know, plant based soy burger texture, which we just discussed until now I think more generally, the idea that there’s a startup that can gain knowledge and experience in working with extruder machines and have the brainpower to develop that thing is a huge potential for the industry and for us as well. And for you.

 

Andrew D Ive  

So I think you know, Bueller is an investor in our fund so we’ve got a an incredible relationship with those guys. We should just have you go live in Zurich and

 

Yishai Mishor  

All of them will love this idea. How’s Zurich doing with COVID by the way?

 

Andrew D Ive  

I don’t know. It’s funny, people are gonna listen to this podcast and watch this video in like five years time and they’ll be like, COVID Oh, yeah, that was that thing back in the day. And obviously, we’re all living it right now. So it’s top of mind. Couple of quick questions in the last five minutes that we have, if I can. In terms of Meat The End, starting a business is always challenging. I’m wondering if you’ve had any moments over the last, you know, 18 months since you started the company where life has thrown you a curveball, and you’ve had a challenge you’ve had to deal with that could have been quite dramatic for the company? Or is it all been perfect, and everything’s been wonderful.

 

Yishai Mishor  

I had one yesterday and two this morning then, over lunch, a couple more. Wow, man, this is really crazy and I know everybody says that, but until you’ve actually experienced it, you can’t imagine what it’s like. It’s like trying to build a car, where you have no car parts, but you need to somehow gather up parts and build a car while you drive it at 100 miles an hour downhill with no brakes. And you’re still building the car as you go.  This is what it feels like. It’s like, every time I’m thinking wow, I’ve done so much and this is taking so much of my time and everything is so dramatic. Then two months pass and it becomes even bigger and even more stressful and there’s ever changing landscape and always on the go. There’s surprises almost on a daily basis. I love it because it’s a perfect balance between planning and doing structured work and chaos.  This is something that really speaks to me personally and I think also for the rest of the team at BBN. We have a combination of about half of our team are very seasoned experienced over 60 you know, Chief a technologist and senior engineers from the biggest companies in the world, people that have seen their share of management and r&d and so on. And another half is young people that are either just out of their PhD or a developmentships and so on and this is not necessarily by age distinction, but we have in our company from the structured and ordered and from the chaos and I think that this is a blessing to work in this business where you can have some chaos and some order in your day, before lunchtime.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Now, if I think back to when I started my first company, I sort of had this misguided belief that there was some sort of God of entrepreneurialism that required sacrifice. It required me to give up all of my time to spend, you know, 60/80/100 hours a week. Thinking about the company, working on the company, giving up all sorts of things, time with friends, from a personal health perspective, time with family, because, you know, the God of entrepreneurialism required, his or her sacrifice. I only really realized after maybe the second or the third startup that, you know, I needed that break from the company that disconnect so that I could maintain a mental health and physical health, so that I could be better for the business and be fresher and be more useful and valuable. What’s that like for you? Have you figured out that you do need those disconnects? Or, given that you have family members around you coming in and asking you questions all the time, you don’t even have a choice in how you disconnect and when you disconnect? How do you deal with this?

 

Yishai Mishor  

It’s a bit personal, but I’ll tell you. I have an almost daily ceremony with myself. Before I go to bed, I take a shower, my thoughts start running, and I think about the day, think about tomorrow, and so on. And I daily have this moment where I’m saying to myself, even in the shower, like, let go and just have five minutes without obsessively thinking about something related to the startup.  But it’s, well, you don’t need me to tell you that you’re just like, you’re one of those people. I’m an obsessed person, I have tasks, and I get hooked on them and I can’t sleep and many of my colleagues in the startup are cut from the same block. And if it wasn’t media, and it was something else before that, I don’t see that as a big change in my life, to be worried about something continuously. The big change is doing something that is in the startup business and that has this dynamic. I do have a rule of one day off a week at the weekend when I’m not doing emails, no phone calls, no nothing. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

Yeah, my time frame and Sundays for me personally. I also created this mental box that I would decide on, on a daily basis, what time I was finishing work. And from that particular time, I would put all of their questions, concerns, thoughts, you know, things I still need to think about in the box, this mental box and say, okay, it’s 9pm or 10pm, or whatever the time is, it’s going in the mental box, locking it, and I’m not gonna think about it until tomorrow morning when I open the box up and start my day again. And I needed that, you know, two hours at the end of the day where I could think about other things I could focus on family daughter, dog, wife, not in that order. In case my wife’s listening …..

 

Yishai Mishor  

Is the dog listening

 

Andrew D Ive  

But no, there’s this mental box, you know, 8:30pm finish, I now need to think about the other more important things in my life, you know, health, wellness, mental health, wellness, family, etc. It doesn’t sound like you have that box yet. 

 

Yishai Mishor  

Can you send me one?

 

Andrew D Ive  

I,ll send you one. How’s that?

 

Yishai Mishor  

Yeah, it sounds like a great idea.  I like this approach.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Well, now you gave me until 10am my time, I’m not sure what that means in your time, but I know I’m two minutes over. So last question, Meat the End, where do people find you who want to? Whether it’s to ask you questions or to potentially become a customer or invest or you know, whatever it is, interview you, how do people find Yishai and Meat the End?

 

Yishai Mishor  

It’s not just Yishai, we have a very large team 12 people all of them would be really happy to tell you more about what we do and why we think it’s exciting and worth the effort. And you can look us up in our website, it’s meattheend.tech.  Happy to get in touch with anyone who feel this is something that they can contribute to.

 

Andrew D Ive  

What about LinkedIn? And I’m guessing as you’re a b2b company with a technology, maybe you’re not doing the Instagram thing, or certainly not the tick tock thing.

 

Yishai Mishor  

I meant for like for my personal name, and I’m on LinkedIn and no, but to get to the company just Just look us up. Just on our website.

 

Andrew D Ive  

Fantastic. So folks, meattheend.tech. If you want to talk to me Yishai Mishor. He’s also on LinkedIn as Yishai. Thank you for your time today. Sorry, we’ve gone a couple of minutes over. Please forgive me and we’ll pause the video now. 

 

Yishai Mishor  

Thank you, Andrew. Thanks. 

 

Andrew D Ive  

Thanks for coming along to the Big Idea Food podcast, with Yishai from Meat the End, I think it was great having his five year old niece getting involved in the podcast, I could have edited it out but you know, we’re all in a kind of lockdown period. Life is happening through virtual mediums, through podcasts through, you know, zoom calls, and so on and it was nice just to have a little child get involved just for a few minutes and participate.  Hopefully it wasn’t too distracting. But you know, this is the real world. We could have taken it to a studio and edited it out and all these wonderful things but, you know, why don’t we give you the real experience of the conversation we had today. So hope you enjoyed the conversation. Please do reach out to Yishai from meattheend.tech. If you have any questions or want to get involved in any way. If you want to reach out to me, I’m Andrew, I’ve been your host from Big Idea ventures. Please do like and subscribe and get involved. By all means listen to next week’s podcast and look forward to entertaining you then. Many thanks. Bye