Big Idea Ventures has launched our very own podcast “The Big Idea Podcast: Food”. Each week Big Idea Ventures Founder Andrew D. Ive will speak with some of the most innovative minds in the food space and talk about the exciting projects they are a part of.
To listen to the episode click the links below!
Podcasts
- Sticher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-big-idea-food-podcast
- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/57TBllxq5CjpdVzzhNGjBp?si=u0hbKJqVQqqpkmyAv28ETg&dl_branch=1&nd=1
- Google Podcast: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZC5jby90aGUtYmlnLWlkZWEtcG9kY2FzdC1mb29k
- Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-big-idea-podcast-food/id1564457496
To learn more about Liven Proteins check out the links below!
Liven Proteins: https://livenproteins.ca/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/livenproteins/
Andrew D Ive
Hello there, welcome to the Big Idea podcast where we focus on food. I’m your host, Andrew Ive, today we’re going to be talking to Fei, the co founder of Liven, Liven Proteins. They’re unlocking the full potential of plant based foods through novel protein ingredients. Really interesting company, interesting technology, they’re going to be creating an interesting future with new proteins. So let’s get into it. If you have any questions or comments, please do leave them or reach out to us via the usual ways. Big Idea ventures.com, the YouTube channel or any of the other ways? Let’s get into the conversation with Faye from livan proteins. Thank you
Okay, hi, Fei, how are you? This is Andrew from the big idea podcast where we focus on food. Who are you? And what are you up to?
Fei Luo
Hi, Andrew. Yeah, thanks for speaking to me about this. So I’m fame co founder and CEO of Liven. So we are an early stage startup. We are a mission driven company, making animal free protein ingredients, or by fermentation of food byproducts. And we really have a strong feeling about circular economy and sustainability.
Andrew D Ive
Amazing that there’s so much to unpack in that just that little sentence or two. So let’s let’s kind of go into it. Where where are you based in the first instance,
Fei Luo
we’re basing Toronto in Canada.
Andrew D Ive
Fantastic. And you talk about sustainability and side streams, and creating animal free products. If you wouldn’t mind, take us through what kind of animal free products you’re you’re focused on what kind of side streams you’re using, etc. Just want to make sure that, you know in that few sentences, we don’t miss anything important.
Fei Luo
Absolutely. So we focus on making functional protein ingredients and bass originally from animals. So currently, we’re working on animal free gelatin. So it is a versatile functional ingredient goes into candies, jellos, including meat cherries, so really creates a nice texture that people love and associated with animal product. So we we decided to work on this because the current alternative protein food, a lot of times the texture is missing. And we believe by making this agility animal free, we can enable the alternative protein foods to taste better or more accurately emulate the animal product that people associate with to encourage more people to purchase the more sustainable proteins. And the raw material the size stream mention we’re talking about we’re working on pulse starch or key starch. We’re probably all very familiar with pea protein because it goes to beyond burger and a lot of goodies. However, if we look at a whole P 25% is protein highly valuable, but twice the amount 50% above is starch. So that is just food grade starch, but it nobody wants them. So they get diverted to animal feed or even disposed of as strictly it’s impact the whole sustainability of the post process industry. So we that’s why we’re converting that into the food items gelatin.
Andrew D Ive
Perfect. So you’re creating gelatin, you’re doing it without outside of the normal processes. And maybe in about a minute we can get into how traditional gelatin is made so that people can understand how what you’re doing is different from what you know, is the traditional industry. So you’re creating gelatin, you’re using a side stream a product waste, what is currently used considered a waste today from the p protein production industry. So the Pea industry is taking peas, they are are taking the protein out of it and using that for plant based foods and so on 50% of the of what’s left is starch and that starch is either getting disposed of or thrown away or used as animal feed or whatever. And from your point of view, you’re taking that starch, I’m just making sure I’m getting all of this right. You’re taking that starch, and you’re using it as a feedstock to create plant based or not even plant based non animal based gelatin is that is that it? is perfect. Is that it? Oh my goodness, I managed to get it on first try Amazing. So gelatin, the gelatin that you’re making? Is it nature identical to traditional gelatin? In other words, you know, you can’t tell the difference between one and the other in terms of its look feel performance and so on or are there? Are there key differences or, you know, how does your gelatin stack up against traditional gelatin? So that would kind of be question one. Question two is, how is traditional gelatin usually made? So yours versus traditional, if you wouldn’t mind just unpacking that a little bit?
Fei Luo
Absolutely. So, traditional gelatin is from different animal sources, from the pigskin, like befalls from fish skins, scales and bowls. So there are many complex sources. And it is typically extracted from a side stream after people harvest the meats, and then the leftover they boil, and then they do acid digestion. So it’s actually a lot of quite environmentally unfriendly processes. And that boils down into some gelatin powder. So, what we are doing is completely different, we are using micro organism fermentation, and from pea starch as food and suddenly when with some other mineral material, and Josie will be made inside of the organisms exported out from the cells in a broth, and we were harvested in a pretty environmentally friendly manner in terms of the functionality. And we will say our gelatin is so what nature defines gelatin collagen is the DNA, the sequences actually we call genetic code that codes the gelatin as a protein. So we are using the same code as how animal co their own protein, and we call the microorganisms and we make the gelatin using identical code. So we would like our gelatine to be exactly the same as the gelatin from animal origin.
Andrew D Ive
So I I mean, that’s so when you say you using the same code, the output of of your process is is basically identical to animal based gelatin, is that
Fei Luo
correct? Yes, that’s, that’s right.
Andrew D Ive
The difference is to make traditional gelatin, you’re taking bones and skin from let’s say fish, or amde, or pork and or beef and other animals. And you’re boiling, not you but the traditional industry is is going through a number of steps which could include boiling and or acid, etc to extract the the kind of the pure gelatin Correct, right?
Fei Luo
And it’s a very polluting, I’m having to we’re removing all that all that from the process.
Andrew D Ive
Okay, I’m not gonna, I’m gonna make sure I’m not going to get like, you know, hate mail from the traditional gelatin industry. I’m sure that that there are regulations around how they produce and what they produce in their factories and so on. You know, I’m, you know, I’m hoping that’s the case. But what we do know for a fact is that your processes don’t do not include boiling and acid and all sorts of other steps. Because you’re literally using pea starch as a foodstuff to grow micro organisms which are programmed to, to export or express gelatin Correct?
Fei Luo
That’s right, we basically have to create an environment that microorganism can grow. So organism grow the environment in our guts, a likes ambient temperature, just like we do. So the entire process is very similar as how we brew beer with some isolates the isolation of process after gelatin is made. So I will say the entire process does not include any of the acid treatment or boiling process as a traditional approach. And of course, yes, there is the regulation around so they definitely will have to treat the pollution that was produced.
Andrew D Ive
Perfect. So in terms of the the gelatin itself, once you produced it, will it be usable in the food industry in chocolate and in all of the other other ways that it’s currently jello and other things the way it’s used today? Your product tool because it’s identical can be used in exactly the same ways from a production and cost perspective. Is it comparable? Can you kind of produce the same kind of quantities and the prices are in line with the traditional industry. I was gonna say though, while I’m thinking about it, the traditional industry has spent decades developing scale. So, you know, they’ve got factories of X number of 100,000 square feet producing gelatin on a minute by minute round the clock basis. So the scale of the production of the traditional method is enormous. I would be highly surprised if you can make it for exactly the same price if as a traditional method, at least today, is that correct?
Fei Luo
Absolutely, not. Today, you’re definitely correct. So we are we just successfully made our prototype animal for jealousy with the gelling functionality a month ago. And the next step is to scale up. And in the precision fermentation space, it is well known that a few company ahead of us, for example, perfect day is already launching their product in the form of ice cream and other products. And I will say as companies starting now, we are kind of lucky that these previous companies are paving the path for us in terms of scale.
Andrew D Ive
Now, when you say they’re ahead of you, does that mean that they won the race already? Or are they doing things in a different way? And they’re, you know, that they’re not? Like, had they one should we be packing up and going home?
Fei Luo
Absolutely not. First of all, we are doing things a entirely different way, we are the first precision fermentation company will look into using size frames as fermentation feedstock. Because most of the companies use sugar. And we know as more fermentation companies are coming up, the price of the sugar is going to increase. And at the same time, there are a lot of size frames. So from sustainability angle, and from the cost of these steps, feedstock angle, we are unique. And also I have to say, amazingly, this, the space of alternative protein is more collaborative, rather than competitive. Because we are solving a huge issue, we want to feed the next billion population is not going to be won by a single winner, but only the whole community can solve this issue. So I believe all the companies are working together and the companies who are ahead of us, definitely, they have their first mover mover advantage. And at the same time, we are having advantage of a learning lesson from their experience as well.
Andrew D Ive
I think many many great points in that, in terms of that collaboration across the food industry. Do you see yourselves wanting to partner with the traditional gelatin companies or come a traditional gelatin company or companies? Do you see yourselves being collaborator partner with with that industry? Or or is that a competitive situation?
Fei Luo
I will say perhaps it will be initially competitive in terms of that we are trying to have an angle to get in the industry that is predominant by the conventional chosen industry. However, in the long term, I do see it is a collaborative, because the whole world of processing is moving towards more sustainable approach. And by end of the day, we all want sustainable gelatin, it has a massive global market of $4 billion. And if we can help the conventional gelatin markets to make the process more sustainable, while maintaining they have access to the customers, right? So they have the customers trust their brands by their gelatin. And if there’s something that we can have synergy, we can help them to transition the processes. I definitely see it is beneficial for both sides.
Andrew D Ive
Is this something that not only companies but governments should be interested in?
Fei Luo
Um, I think government is also creating this kind of community around us to start to support alternative proteins and also bridging to create, like, linkages between the conventional companies and alternative protein. It is perhaps emerging not as mainstream yet that’s why it’s see right now is probably more competitive. But yeah, only everyone. Only once everyone is thinking about it. So and the government takes some initiatives of can the transition happens
Andrew D Ive
Perfect. What made you start Liven? And sort of? Did you have other choice? I’m guessing you had multiple choices before you decided to start the company. What made you sort of say, Okay, this is this is the moment when I’m going to start this company, and I’m going to dedicate the next five years, eight years, 10 years, whatever it might be to build something like this.
Fei Luo
I will rather say it is not planned. Absolutely. So my background is environmental biotechnology, chemical engineering. So my passion is always use microorganism to degrade something toxic, and make it not toxic, but value added. So I did my PhD working on petroleum hydrocarbon degradation, and commercialize that technology with the industrial partner called serum. And I believe that microbial mixture is now somewhere in a market to treat a petroleum a contaminations in groundwater. And then I moved on to be an Environmental Consultants brought in the team to use our technology to inform decision making. And at the same time, I see the use of biotechnology in sustainability and environmental industry is emerging, but happening very, very slow, because it is just not on everyone’s priority, how to bring new technologies to make things better, people are thinking about it, but everyone is busy with their day to day jobs. So I’ve always been talking to my co founder, actually also husband about how to create impact, to use our technology that we’re good at. So around that time, he has a friend who has a distillery business, so he has a lot of like, byproducts in terms spent grain. And we have been talking about can we solve this problem by making crackers sausages, or ferments the byproduct into something that replacing something not sustainable, and we landed on idea of animal protein, because we all love to eat delicious food. But the comments delicious food is not sustainable. So we would like to replace that. And the the byproduct part, I’m really resonated with my background, because they are surplus foods that can be transformed into something that is more value added food. So we developed this, I guess, concept about we have to work on a project that bring a circular economy in the food value chain, fermenting byproducts, to produce animal proteins. So that was a concept. And we talked to various people when we’re both working on our own job. So it was a side project. And around that time our daughter was born. So I was on maternity leave, I guess have more time on me. So we worked on the proposal got some grants,
Andrew D Ive
we have more time when you had a daughter less time I’ve asked the calculation, I think you may have misjudged,
Fei Luo
I guess it’s, I guess less time to thinking about work. But I’m not the person who can just not thinking about work. So kind of transition from the previous consultant role to more thinking about bringing this new venture to life. So that is the time that we made a switch. I guess I made a switch to full time dedicating developing the idea, getting more connection, hold idea to make animal free gelatin, because we see as we can solve a lot of big problems. And to from like pea starch.
Andrew D Ive
Perfect. And you said and your company is called Liven Where did that come from? What made you think of of that?
Fei Luo
Well, that’s actually my co founders idea. So we keep thinking about the name, we need to bring something to life, we want to give the Second Life to buy products that can be used as food, but they were lost. So that is where the idea was born.
Andrew D Ive
Okay, so so it was a side project, then you became a mother. And you and you decided you had all of this time on your hands, which is is crazy, but still and you you decided to move forward with the concept. How did it go from concept to business?
Fei Luo
So, around that time, we’re talking to people in the alternative protein space to think about if we have this wonderful platform technology to make animals Protein what we should make. And around that time we spoke to alternative seafood company, and have quite a bit of discussion about how to support plant based seafood and plant base needs to have better texture. And the idea of gelatin moved to the surface. And we worked as a get together to apply for government grants, actually, to kickstart the project of that flesh out and thinking about what kind of byproducts and through more and more conversations we realize, pea starch is a huge problem in Canada, because we made 10 million metric tons a piece or a peep piece in 2020. And just imagine how much storage we generated. So once we have the detailed technology idea, we got some government grants to kickstart our lab and hired our first scientists to actually work start working on the r&d. And also get support from Big Idea ventures. And from you actually, that’s further like actually helped me to dedicate in this venture.
Andrew D Ive
Okay, fantastic. So challenges in terms of starting the company, getting it growing, and so on. You make it sound very, very easy. Has it always been? Has sort of one thing followed another quite naturally. And it’s all been quite easy? Or have you had times when you were wondering whether you had sort of bitten off too much. And maybe you were more insane than you realized.
Fei Luo
I guess all the time, we’re trying to figure out what is the next step. And definitely, but somehow the next step landed, in some words in a way that people outside see, it’s naturally happened. I recall, when we have the concept, we’re looking for funding. And when the funding is approved, we didn’t have a lab, that’s when the pandemic was really bad. So we basically spent almost have more than half a year to one year to secure our lab. So luckily, we started much earlier on before we had any money, we’re already looking for labs, and then looking for employees. So everything kind of happened. Looks like in a sequential way, but not in the sequence. We actually did them. So
Andrew D Ive
yeah, you make it sound like it was you know, we had this idea I got pregnant, I start I move the idea forward, we raise some money, like you know, you make it sound really quite easy.
Fei Luo
I have to thank my daughter to join a most of a lot of my meetings, investor meetings, lawyer meetings, she was in quite a bit of.
Andrew D Ive
Absolutely. So what’s the next, let’s say two to three years all about for liven if everything goes, assuming you have a plan, if everything goes to plan over the next two to three years, what’s going to be accomplished? What do you hope to achieve?
Fei Luo
Absolutely. So we definitely have a plan. That’s what we’re all about. So through Big Idea venture journey, we create a protocol, an animal for each LT with a charming functionality. That’s quite exciting. And the next step is to scale up the production. Because we have quite a few customers asking us for samples to test our animal fragility in their application of plant based fish meat alternatives, and others flavor delivery capsules, and we need to make sufficient amount for them. Single vial will not do a few grands what I’ll do so only when we scale up to hundreds a liter fermentation scale and have a robust downstream processing, then we will provide samples to customers for validation. And that will inform us to further optimize the gelling functionality of proteins and eventually reach commercial scale. So we are hoping to in the next year, we will be able to provide samples to at least five customers at the scale of around five grams 200 grams. And in 2024 We would like to have our like commercial scale fermentation so we can have initial integration of the gelatin in customers products.
Andrew D Ive
And from a support perspective, what are you going to need over the next 18 months, two years to deliver on these things? What kind of support would you like to get from others? Whether it’s I don’t know fundraising or advisory or, you know, you name it, what? How do you need help over the next year or two to accomplish some of these things?
Fei Luo
Absolutely, when you the world health as a small team. So first of all, I guess for the funding side, we just launched a $2 million round to support our scale of activities, so we can have customer validation. So we’ll have more active conversations with investors in the coming January. And other support, including mostly on the food side, we have to say we are a team of had pretty good background in industrial biotechnology, we have a combined 40 year experience in this area. But we’re not food scientist, we don’t know food as much as about technology. So so we are looking for support either as advisors, or a consultant to guide us through how to integrate our normal ingredients in the in the like food or final food items, perhaps even to develop some prototypes that will lower the barrier of adoption. And someone who really understand the supply chains and have connection for customers. So there are a number of supports we’re looking
Andrew D Ive
for. And do you think that help is going to come from individuals with expertise? Or do you think it may actually come from a partnership with a company or companies already in this space? Who understand it, you know, very, very well? Do you think it’s going to be strategic support from a strategic partner? Or do you think it’s more likely to come from, you know, consultants and people who have just been in the industry for quite some time?
Fei Luo
I don’t have a very clear answer right now, perhaps a will be a mixture. Yeah, so strategic partnership that, for example, ingredient houses that have their already customer tell. And we can co develop some technologies together that will give to provide to the solution to their existing customers. And some of the support can come from any independent consultant in terms of like who scientists that you have to develop some prototype, how our animal for children can be used in planning food. And also some organizations, I will say for some good food Institute definitely have a lot of resources for us to understand the food supply chain and the new area to be explored. So yeah, I believe it will be a mixed approach. And if you have any pointers, I’d love to hear your suggestions as well.
Andrew D Ive
Yeah, absolutely. I think there’s, I mean, as you said, it’s a multi billion dollar industry. There’s there’s other companies going through different, you know, taking different approaches on bringing nature identical ingredients to market, especially around well, gelatin, there’s, you know, there’s, there’s at least four or five companies that I can immediately think of that are focused on finding new ways of creating gelatin. I think I think strategic partners are going to be incredibly important. I think most of the forward thinking sort of leading companies, even the traditional gelatin companies should all be sort of aware of companies like yours, who have the potential to evolve their industries, I wouldn’t say upset or change or discontinue their industries as much as move their existing industries into the next phase, right. You know, they’ve got they understand that their customer, they understand the supply chain, they understand how to scale gelatin. So they’ve got a lot of things to bring to the party. As do you guys. So what I would hope is that, when it’s appropriate for you, you know, you bring in the right partner to, you know, bring bring gelatin into the next phase of production, where it’s not about animal bones and skin as a way of producing it, but it’s about something much more sustainable. Absolutely. Right. So in terms of where can people find Fei, if somebody wants to reach out to you whether it’s to talk about your investment round, or because they’ve got a unique experience that could be valuable to your objective? What’s the best way of people getting hold of Liven proteins?
Fei Luo
Absolutely. So we have our website, www.livenproteins.ca. And there is info, like email address there. And also feel free to reach me from LinkedIn. And I’m always checking messages.
Andrew D Ive
I know you said livenproteins.com
Fei Luo
Oh, “.ca” Sorry. It’s a web based in Canada. So
Andrew D Ive
your email addresses livenproteins.ca. So your website is livenproteins.ca? Correct? That’s correct. livenproteins.com does exist, but I don’t do you own that? Or does somebody else own that?
Unknown Speaker
We do with just just in case, some other people use another website that is rather confusing. So but our website is livenproteins.ca? And you’re absolutely correct.
Andrew D Ive
You can redirect it, you know, redirect that.com to dt.ca. And have it just sort of magically automatically appear. Okay, so the best way of getting hold of you is through livenproteins.ca. I’m guessing you’re on LinkedIn, and some of those other places as well.
Fei Luo
Yes, that’s correct. reach me on LinkedIn. I’m always checking our messages.
Andrew D Ive
Any last thoughts for people who are considering starting a company? Obviously, they could, you know, get pregnant and and hit maternity leave. But you know, that seems like a drastic step as far as I’m concerned. What what what would be your sort of parting thought for people who are considering wanting to have an impact on the sustainability of food, or any company for that matter?
Fei Luo
I will say, if you have a mission, reach out to the community around you the startup communities alternative protein, what I found is in in my I’m still early, but earlier stage of exploring, a lot of people are incredibly supportive. And you can quickly find out where to find some initial resources and connections, cheerleaders to support you to start the journey. So reach out to the communities we’re all in this together.
Andrew D Ive
I couldn’t agree more that the food industry has been the most collaborative industry I’ve ever been a part of. I wouldn’t, you know, I would never think of competitors. Just people I haven’t figured out how to partner with yet. Is is probably the best way of putting it. Okay, Faye, thank you so much. Thanks for introducing us to live and proteins. And I look forward to seeing the next 18 months to two years and how amazing a company you’re going to build. I think that’s it for today. I’m going to press pause and then I’ll be right back.
Fei Luo
Okay, thank you, Andrew for having me. I’m looking forward to the next phase as well myself.
Andrew D Ive
All right. Hope you enjoyed the conversation between Fei and myself from liven protein. By all means, like and subscribe. We’d love to reengage with you and let me know when the next podcast is coming. If you have any questions for comments, by all means reach out to Faye, or myself in terms of reaching out to me, I’m the founder of Big Idea ventures. You can find me at Big Idea ventures.com at LinkedIn. And that’s basically the two best ways I look forward to connecting with you. Hope you come along to the next podcast. Okay, have a good one. Thanks very much for coming along to the big idea podcast where we focus on food
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